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Old 02-08-2002, 09:20 PM
rivkah rivkah is offline
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WAS the Torah added?

We can see that the Torah was ratified (or perhaps the better word is consummated?) at Mt. Sinai, but does that mean that that is the first the Israelites had heard of it???

We see Moses talking to Pharoah, where Pharoah says that he can go without his cattle, and Moses says they need to take their cattle because they're not sure what G-D requires.

Quote:
Exo 10:24 - Then Pharoah called to Moses and said, "Go, serve the L-RD; onlyu let your flocks and your herds be kept back... But Moses said, "You must also give us sacrifices and burnt offerings... our livestock also shall go with us... for we must take some of them to serve the L-RD... and even we do not know with what we must serve the L-RD until we arrive there."
Keep in mind that the Israelites had been in bondage for many years. We can look at our own lives and see that in a very short time, things are forgotten. We have many stories to tell our children about our grandparents, but to them, they are only stories, and how many generations does it take before they (and we) are forgotten? But were there at least a few that the "tradition of Torah" had been kept intact?

There is evidence, prior to Mt. Sinai, that there was Torah, perhaps only verbal Torah.

Quote:
Gen 26:5 ... because Avraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Even Cain and Abel were bringing offerings, so they had some sort of understanding of G-D and his "expectations." Didn't they?

And by what standard would the people of the earth, at the time of the flood, been judged as wicked? Would G-D have held the wicked accountable and destroyed them if they had not KNOWN what was required of them?
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Old 02-09-2002, 10:54 AM
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Post Entered or added at Mt. Sinai?

Shalom Rivkah,

Welcome to the Forum Rivkah, it is a blessing to have your presence here, and may you be blessed as well.

I see that this thread has started already without my initial thoughts...that's fine, this is probably the best way to really delve into this question. I agree with you that Yahweh did let a few select individuals know what His requirements were, but for the vast majority of those who lived before Mt. Sinai, plain and simple, they were in the dark. The Torah is light, and it had not been given or added until Mt. Sinai, at least that is what I perceive from Paul's writings. What are your thoughts on Romans 5:20:
Quote:
KJV Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
And also Galatians 3:19:
Quote:
KJV Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
How do you interpret what Paul meant in these two passages?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew
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Old 02-09-2002, 06:42 PM
rivkah rivkah is offline
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" E N T E R "

Question:

When did the law ENTER? Was it at Mt. Sinai, or was it when Adam left the garden?

The Galatians 3:19 verse says the law was added for transgressions. At what point did the transgressions begin? Romans 5:13 speaks of the transgression of Adam, and vs. 15 says that if by the one man's offense many died ....... that, too, is speaking of Adam.

So I can't help but believe that there was Torah, even at the time of Adam, because as I say, G-d is not One who would pass the ultimate judgment on a people (those of the flood) who did not even know what transgressions they were committing. It smacks of injustice.

Also, if you are familiar with some of the Jewish viewpoints about Torah, you know that there is a concept that G-d used the Torah in his creation process. It is a very "heavy" study but it makes a lot of sense. The Torah is so much more than written letters, or spoken words. The alphabet, on many levels, contains the essence of who G-D is, and it is further manifested in the Living Torah, His Messiah. It just doesn't get much heavier ! !

Why was the Torah given at Mt. Sinai, to the Israelites? Why was it offered ..... and accepted?

Prior to Mt. Sinai, we see G-D selecting his bride ...... Adam ....>> Seth ......>>Noah .....>>> Shem .....>> Avraham .......>> Isaac .......>> Jacob ..............>>>

There is a betrothal period, prior to marriage, where the bride learns about their husband, who he is, what he likes, what can be expected of him, and what he will expect of you. The betrothal culminated at Mt. Sinai, where the Israelites stood under the mountain, the chuppah, and accepted the written contract (ketubah) of their husband. Then the bride and groom begin their journey to the home that he has prepared. History begins with Torah, and ends with Torah.

Quote:
Isa 2:3 - Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the L-RD, to the house of the G-d of Yaacov; he will teach us his ways. And we shall walk in His paths." for out of Zion shall go forth the Torah, and the word of the L-RD from Yerushalayim.
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Old 02-09-2002, 10:51 PM
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Post The Torah was added.

Shalom Rivkah,

Good to hear back from you. To be sure, the Torah is much more than meets the eye. The Torah is a blueprint for life, and if one is of a willing spirit, it will give life. But the flesh is not of a willing spirit, the flesh opposes Torah, and the Torah opposes flesh...there is a conflict between the two. This is what Paul saw when he viewed the covenant of Sinai. He saw how the commandment "Thou shalt not covet," produced the desire to covet within him, because he was flesh. He also saw that the Torah was not made for the righteous man, but rather for the unrighteous. The giving of the Torah, or any command from Yahweh, to those who by nature are fleshly, are made to be transgressors THROUGH that very giving of the Torah or command.

Try to look at it this way...some countries have "open" highways in which there is no posted speed limit, and it is a judgment call for each driver to drive at a speed in which they can be driving safely. If all drivers feel that excessive speed can kill and they drive responsibly, then they are a law to themselves, and they are doing what is right with regard to their driving, without a posted speed limit. On the other hand, their are countries that post the speed limit. By posting that speed limit, those who drive in excess of that limit become violators of that law (they become transgressors). Now picture this...you have a young driver that just turns 16 and he is given a supercharged Mustang to drive, does he have any chance of complying with the speed limit? No, it would be impossible. By his nature of being 16 and immature, he cannot help but speed. And this was Paul's argument for those who are of the flesh, it was impossible for them to conform to Yahweh's Torah. The Torah aroused their fleshly desires, and they transgressed.

Adam and Eve were created flesh, and when the commandment came to them, they were found to be transgressors. A transgressor is one who breaks a command of Yahweh. Paul speaks of Adam's transgression, and tells us how death and condemnation was given to all men as a result of that ONE transgression. Even though all were sinning from Adam to Moshe, they were not committing a transgression in the same manner as did Adam. Adam was given a command, and he disobeyed, thus becoming a transgressor. Here is something that needs to be recognized...by Yahweh giving that command, it guaranteed Adam's transgression, because Adam was flesh. You give flesh a command, and flesh is rebellious, and will not submit. The same thing happened with the giving of the Torah at Sinai...the transgression of Adam was INCREASED because the Torah was given (all of Yahweh's commands). The Torah was not given at Sinai because transgression had increased, the Torah was given at Sinai to INCREASE transgression. The Torah identifies sinners as transgressors, for before the Torah was given, there was NO transgression:
Quote:
KJV Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
But when the Torah came, Adam's transgression increased (many more were made to be transgressors, like Adam). Paul says the same in Romans 5 where he states men were sinning from Adam to Moshe, but it was not IMPUTED sin, they were NOT transgressors, because it was BEFORE the Torah.

Now, this is exactly how Paul taught concerning the Torah, and he was twisted and distorted as being against the Torah. As you stated Rivkah, the Torah can be viewed in a much "heavier" sense. The Torah is Spiritual, it is a shadow, and if one looks only at the shadow (the written/physical commands), they will miss the true Spiritual blessing of the Torah.

Do you follow my line of thought here Rivkah?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew
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Old 02-10-2002, 08:17 AM
rivkah rivkah is offline
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Yes, I follow what you are saying. I recognize your name, ImaHebrew, from the other forum, so you are probably already familiar with my views and what responses can be expected from me. I do not spiritualize Torah, separate and apart from the physical. There is a physical body that performs works, but it is with the spirit that we perform them correctly, that is, with a heart for G-D. In that we have transgressed Torah from the beginning, we are judged, but through G-d's provision, our death sentence is paid, and we are now at liberty, in our physical bodies, to perform Torah works without the death penalty hanging over our heads. The Torah shows us the essence of G-d, i.e., he is a perfect balance of the letter of the law, representing justice, judgment, the physical, AND the spirit of the law, representing mercy, the heart, the spirit.


Last edited by rivkah; 02-10-2002 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 02-10-2002, 09:06 AM
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Unhappy Please don't sign off.

Shalom Rivkah,

It was not my intent to make you leave so soon. I hope you reconsider, for if you really understood what I had just written to you, you would not sign off.

Just something to bring you back. I did go and read some of what you have posted at the Theology Forum, and it appears that you do agree with some of what I have said:
Quote:
Same thing for all people, anywhere in the time line. Righteousness is not OURS innately. OUR righteousness is as a menstrual rag. But the Torah is perfect and represents the righteousness of G-d. "Torah" comes from an archery term that means to hit the mark. It is the bullseye for which we aim. But we are unable, no matter how many works we perform in accordance to the commandments, to hit that bullseye. To stand righteous before G-d, we take the perfect score of Yeshua, who DID hit the bullseye.
I agree with you that the flesh cannot hit the bullseye, that it is impossible to do so. But where I disagree with you is where you take the perfect score of Yahshua and then apply it to your marksmanship. That's substitution, and I do not agree with substituting someone else's righteousness into a sinner's account. Does not Paul tell us that it is the DOERS of the Torah who will be declared righteous, not the hearers? And aren't we told by Yahweh through Ezekiel that even the families of Job, Daniel, and Noah would not be saved by substituting the righteousness they had to their families? To have righteousness, one MUST do the Torah, and this is where transgression and Grace enter...do you know where I am going?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew
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Old 02-10-2002, 11:13 AM
rivkah rivkah is offline
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I removed the "signing off," phrase in my last post. It was not my intent to leave. Sometimes I won't "check in" for several days, but don't think that's because I'm avoiding discussion. I am either too busy, or I am studying up on a response.

Quote:
Romans 5:19 - For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.
Here's how I see it. When Adam sinned, mankind was diminished to a place from which they could not return, i.e., subjects of death. Once that happened, Adam could/should repent, return to G-d, seek His will, and walk in His ways. But no amount of repentance or seeking or walking can restore him/us to where we were in the garden. That restoration can only come from G-d, and he makes provision for that restoration through one man, His messiah. That is the bullseye that we must accept. The bullseye is the perfect sacrifice, without blemish, the sacrifice who was judged, in accordance with Torah, and found not to be lacking. That sacrifice we must accept, place the blood on the doorposts of our heart, and walk out of Egypt. That is our first step of obedience, the first step out of a million, that ultimately lead us to the promised land.

I'll check in sometime next week. Shalom !
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Old 02-11-2002, 10:19 AM
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Lightbulb Increase transgression=increase Grace

Shalom Rivkah,

I'm thankful that you will be checking back in. The topic we are discussing is very critical in gaining a thorough understanding of what Yahweh is trying to accomplish with mankind. You have it right when you state that we are to walk out of Egypt and start taking steps in obedience, and as you quote Romans 5:19, Yahshua had to be obedient unto death for us to start taking those steps (become righteous). But if you would notice Romans 5:16:
Quote:
KJV Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Notice that the "free gift" that we receive as a result of Yahshua being obedient unto death, is the result of MANY OFFENCES, which brings justification (righteousness). This is one of the main reasons of why Paul raised the issue of "Why the Torah was added." Both Romans 5 and Galatians 3 state that the Torah came in or was added FOR or to INCREASE transgression/offences.

Bear with me please. In Romans 5:14 Paul tells us that Adam is a figure or type of the One coming (Yahshua), and in the verses that follow, Paul explains how Adam and Yahshua are similar. Most translators do not grasp what Paul is trying to relate, but Paul is stating that the comparison between them is NOT with respect to the offence/transgression, rather the free gift. Both Adam and Yahshua gave something to mankind, Adam gave death and condemnation, and Yahshua gave life and justification/righteousness. Adam's gift to mankind was the result of ONE offence, Yahshua's gift was the result of MANY offences, so the comparison cannot be made when you look at the offence, rather, the comparison is when you look at the gift. Paul goes on to say that the Torah came in so that the offence/transgression might INCREASE...do you catch this(v.20)? Remember also, the free gift of righteousness is of many offences(v.16). So Paul concludes that when the offence/transgression is increased, grace is increased all the more(v.20 also).

Now, here is how one should view the mechanics of how the "Grace/free gift of righteousness" works. The Torah was added to increase transgression, and the transgression is the breaking of Yahweh's GIVEN commands. This transgression is made INTO righteousness THROUGH Elohim's Grace. Built within the Torah, we are given a way in which we can become righteous if we sin, and that way involves sacrifice. If we break a command, there is a just/righteous way in which we can fulfill the requirement that the Torah demands of us, and that is to sacrifice. The Jew of Paul's day did not want to accept Yahshua as THEIR sacrifice, they wanted to continue to follow the "works/physical" fulfillment of the Torah (and sacrifice an animal). Paul tried to teach them that THEY did kill their offering, THROUGH THEIR SIN/TRANSGRESSION. By sinning, they fulfilled the just requirement of the Torah, but it was not according to works, rather it was according to the Spirit/Spiritual fulfillment of the Torah. So, when transgression was increased, the killing of Yahshua increased, thus producing righteousness (a DOING of what the Torah required of the sinner). This has nothing to do with Yahshua hitting the bulls-eye in a sinner's stead. It is how Yahweh is allowing a sinner, who did not pursue righteousness, to obtain to the doing of righteousness. But this DOING of the Torah, is not according to the physical/works of the Torah, rather it is according to the Spirit. Yahshua is OUR Spiritual sacrifice, and we did sacrifice Him THROUGH our sin (read Hebrews 6 & 10). And this is WHY when transgression/sin is increased, Grace is increased all the more.

Hopefully, this will help us to continue in our discussion.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew
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Old 02-11-2002, 06:28 PM
rivkah rivkah is offline
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Quote:
And this is WHY when transgression/sin is increased, Grace is increased all the more.
Do we continue in sin so that grace may abound?

HEAVEN FORBID !
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Old 02-11-2002, 08:00 PM
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Unhappy Should we do evil so that good may result?

Shalom Rivkah,

You are so right! As you are aware, Paul said the same thing:
Quote:
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 Elohim forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Paul knew the teaching that he espoused begged the question--"Well, if by sinning I receive the free gift of righteousness, then I should sin all the more so that I will gain more of this free gift?" And this is exactly what happened:
Quote:
Romans 3:5-8 5 But if our unrighteousness establishes the righteousness of Elohim, what shall we say? Is not Elohim unjust to inflict His wrath on us? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6 May it never be! For otherwise how will Elohim judge the world? 7 But if through my falsehood the truth of Elohim abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come?" Their condemnation is just.
Can you see it here Rivkah? Doesn't Paul's teaching about how we accomplish righteousness THROUGH our sin, leave open a whole host of accusations by those who do not see the Spiritual fulfillment of the Torah? Those who do not see it will say, "Let's do evil so that good may result!!!" Paul had to put up with a lot of twisting and distorting of what he was teaching, because it takes the Spirit of Elohim to understand what he taught. Just look at Galatians 2:17:
Quote:
Galatians 2:17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Messiah, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Messiah promotes sin? Absolutely not!
Here Paul tells us that ANYONE seeking to be made righteous/justified IN Messiah, that they are proven to be a sinner. This begs the question or response "Does that mean Messiah PROMOTES sin?" Think about it? If we are made righteous through our sacrifice of Messiah and this sacrifice was accomplished through sin, doesn't that mean that Messiah promotes sin? Paul's answer clarifies what is taking place--he tells us that in Messiah, a sinner was crucified and died with Messiah, and if we raised back to life or rebuild the sinner which was destroyed, THEN we truly PROVE we are indeed transgressors. The purpose of Elohim's Grace is to destroy sinners and teach us how we must live:
Quote:
Titus 2:11-12 11 For the grace of Elohim that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
Knowing that our sin did crucify Messiah, we now have a tremendous motivation not to fall back into deliberate sin:
Quote:
Hebrews 10:26-27 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of Elohim.

Hebrews 6:4-6 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of Elohim and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away (fall back INTO deliberate sin), to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of Elohim all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Rivkah, I hope that this is making some sense to you. Our sacrifice of Yahshua delivers us OUT of Egypt/sin. We cannot go back to Egypt/sin if we want to have a chance of entering the Promised Land/Eternal Life. So I am convinced that what Paul taught is as I have described here to you, and this righteousness that we receive is an actual DOING of the Torah, not by works, but by the Spiritual Fulfillment of it. And the sacrifice of Yahshua starts us on the path to do all of it Spiritually, WITH Him, not Him doing it for us in our stead. Thanks for listening.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew
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Old 02-11-2002, 10:03 PM
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Mr. Hebrew,

I agree with you on why the Torah was added. To promote the sin of the people. I think we could say this was done so that we would know evil, and those without would have a mark:
Quote:
Exodus 13:9 This observance will be for you like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that the law of the LORD is to be on your lips. For the LORD brought you out of Egypt with his mighty hand.
Purpose of the Law an Identification card? I believe that general 'Christianity' is searching for a social security number or a microchip. Some extra-biblical activity. I think that it is almost clear what the Mark really is. Any thoughts? Perhaps a new thread may be in order.

Say hi to the fam.

Sincerely,
Searching
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