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Old 02-15-2002, 07:37 AM
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ImAHebrew ImAHebrew is offline
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Post 1st post on "Why the Torah was added."

Shalom All,

I am going to start a new thread here with 3 posts. These posts will consist of a conversation between myself and EliYah (of EliYah's Forums-www.eliyah.com/forum2). I would like to bring over the initial posts from EliYah's and see if we could continue on with it here. Hopefully, it will be easy to follow, and it' not that much reading to get a good idea of the different views concerning WHY the Torah was added.

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Author: ImAHebrew
Topic: Why the Torah was "added."
Posts: 281
Registered: Sep 98
Posted 10-25-2001 02:39 PM
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Shalom EliYah,
I was wondering if we could have an "open" discussion on why the Torah was added, in the True Faith Forum?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

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Author: EliYah
Topic: Why the Torah was "added."
Posts: 582
Registered:
Posted 10-25-2001 03:58 PM
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Shalom ImaHebrew,

Previously, this forum was a free for all forum where any could post or reply or discuss. The format of "The True Faith" forum is now in a question & answer format.

The following is a description of the new format:

* All are free to post a new topic that includes a question regarding the studies and/or beliefs expressed on this web site. One need not agree with the beliefs expressed on this web site.

* Only the moderator and those whom the moderator appoints may reply to the questions listed on this forum.

Nevertheless, if you have some understandings of scripture to share which indicate I (or other pro-torah believers) are in error, feel free to share it here for a response

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With love in His service,

EliYah
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  #2  
Old 02-15-2002, 07:45 AM
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2nd post on "Why the Torah was added?"

Author: ImAHebrew
Topic: Why the Torah was ADDED?
Posts: 282
Registered: Sep 98
Posted 10-30-2001 07:41 AM
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Shalom EliYah,

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss these things. I could be wrong, but I felt you originally started the True Faith Forum as a way in which you could curtail the battles that were taking place on the main Discussion Forum, by moving them over here. It would be nice if you had a forum that would allow discussion between potential brethren, BEFORE they committed to being brothers which hold the same beliefs. But I must say that your willingness to discuss this topic with just me is something that I will agree to.

The reason I am bringing this topic up is because of what I have read on the "Who's calling whom blind" thread, concerning WHY the Torah was added.

Male' 'im Rwach made this statement on that thread (bold is added by me):
Quote:
"but after the Israelites disobeyed, the rest of "the law" was added because of their transgressions"
Minnesota Marlin's repost of his views to Hannah expresses the same thinking:
Quote:
"Gal 3:19 Why then the (extra) law, it was [added] because of >>>>------------------>transgressions"
In your post to Naomi, you give a link to a study on Galatians 3 which states:
Quote:
"What is the purpose of the law? It was added because of disobedience to Yahweh's will!"
Both Male'im Rwach and Minnesota Marlin seem to indicate that additional law/laws was ADDED to the original commands given to Moshe. I'm not certain if that is your position, but it does appear that you all agree with the conclusion that whatever "law" was added, it was added BECAUSE transgression/transgressions was committed. You all seem to feel that Paul is indicating that Yahweh decided to correct or help the Israelites in overcoming their transgressions by giving the Torah, or adding to the Torah.

There is a different way to view how Paul was thinking when he writes about why Yahweh "added" the Torah. Both Galatians 3 and Romans 5 need to be considered in determining what Paul meant. In Galatians 3, Paul is making an argument about the promises made to Abraham and his seed. In verse 15, Paul makes a human comparison. If someone agrees to do something, then they don't come along and start changing all the terms and conditions to what they agreed to. The same can be said of the promises made to Abraham and his seed, by Yahweh. The covenant of the Torah (which came 430 after the covenant with Abraham) does not change or alter the promises. The adding of the covenant which Yahweh gave through Moshe, needs to be viewed with the mindset that it cannot take away from what was originally promised. In fact, it needs to be viewed as something that validates or helps the promises to be fulfilled. Keeping this in mind, Paul then asks the question: "Why then the Torah?" His answer is phrased very specifically. The word used in his answer, that is translated "because of," is misunderstood by most. Do a word study on "because of." Most often, in the NT, you will find that if someone is trying to indicate an action was taking place "because of" some other action, the Greek word "dia" (Strongs 1223) is used. There are 504 occasions where this word is used to indicate something was happening "because of" something else. Strongs defines it as meaning "though, on account of, because of." An example of "dia" is found here:
Quote:
Matt 27:18 For he knew that because of envy they had delivered Him up.
Can you see this? Because of envy, they delivered Him up. If Paul meant that because of transgressions, Yahweh added the Torah, or added TO the Torah, he would have used the Greek word "dia/1223." But instead of using "dia," Paul used the Greek word "charin/5484." Charin is only used 8 times in the NT. The ONLY place that it is translated "because of" is here in Gal 3:19. The other 7 places use either "for the sake of" or "for this reason." EliYah, please consider this carefully. Charin/5484 is closely related to charis/5485. Charis is the Greek word used for gift, or Grace. The reason Paul used charin here in Gal 3:19 is because he wanted to convey the idea that the Torah was added to "give" or "promote" transgression. The Torah was added FOR the sake of transgression, for that reason. It was added so that sinners could be identified as TRANSGRESSORS.

Here is where Romans 5 comes in to play. Before the Torah, mankind was sinning, but sin is not imputed where there is no Torah. Paul looked at Adam as being a transgressor. Adam had received a command from Yahweh, and he broke it, thus becoming a transgressor/offender. Paul also saw where from Adam to Moshe, man was dying as a result of Adam's transgression, his ONE offense, not their own imputed sin. This condition was not just. It was not proper to die because of someone else's sin. Sinners need to die for their own sin, and the giving of the Torah established just that. The Torah, when it was added, INCREASED the transgression:
Quote:
NAS Romans 5:20 And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but
Adam's transgression was increased! Sinners were NOW breaking a command, just like Adam had broken a command. So sinners NOW become transgressors, just like Adam, because the Torah came. Several things are accomplished here as we sinners are now labeled as transgressors. One is that we cannot now claim to be the Seed of Abraham. Abraham obeyed Yahweh in everything that he was commanded (Gen 26:5) If someone wanted to be considered as Abraham's Seed, they would have to be like Abraham. Well, the giving of the Torah helped to identify the True Seed, because it identified all sinners as transgressors. This is how Paul is thinking in Gal 3. Yahweh, for the purpose or sake of (charin) labeling all sinners, as TRANSGRESSORS, added the Torah. When the True seed comes, He is easily recognized, because He is just like Abraham (not a transgressor).

Hopefully you can see this EliYah. Let me know if this does, or does not make any sense to you?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew
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Author: EliYah
Topic: Why the Torah was ADDED?
Posts: 585
Registered:
Posted 12-19-2001 09:27 PM
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Shalom ImaHebrew,

Thank you for patiently waiting for a response. I have put some thought into your understanding here and I do have a couple questions for you.

1. Are you saying that "transgression" is clearly something different than "sin"? I looked at how the greek word for "transgression" (#3487, parabasis) was used in the Septuagint. It is found in Psalm 101:3 where it is from the Hebrew word 7750 (Soot) meaning to fall away. I also notice that the Hebraic Roots version has "Apostasy" rather than "transgression" in Galatians 3:19.

2. Was there not righteously imputed sin before the Torah was given? It seems that with the destruction of the entire world through the flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, there must have been some knowledge of righteousness. If you do a timeline and look at the length of time that people lived, it can be seen that Adam's son (Seth) probably didn't die until right before Noah was born. We also see that Noah and Abraham both existed at or near the same time period. One timeline shows that Abraham was 65 when Noah died. If so then Shem likely even lived even into the early days of Jacob's life. What this teaches me is that it wasn't very difficult to communicate the ways of righteousness from one generation to another in those days. There wasn't this great need for something to be written down that was generally well known. The Torah would have those things written down, but prior to that I would tend to think that the ways of righteousness were already well known (though rebelled against). Israel, through their years of slavery, would have lost the correct teaching (torah, instruction) of Yahweh, thus the need for instruction. I can be wrong here, so if I'm missing something help me to understand your position.

Thanks for taking the time to post


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With love in His service,

EliYah
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  #3  
Old 02-15-2002, 07:52 AM
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3rd post on "Why the Torah was added?"

Author: ImAHebrew
Topic: Why the Torah was added?
Posts: 283
Registered: Sep 98
Posted 12-30-2001 02:36 PM
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Shalom EliYah,

Thank you for responding. I'm not at all offended by the amount of time it took for you to respond. I also like to take more time between responses than I used to. At one time in my posting career I was like a machine gun, blasting away as fast as I could at anyone and anything. On issues as important as the one we are discussing, we need to take time to reflect and pray. So please, don't feel any pressure from me on this issue to respond immediately, let's both think about what each other has to say.

Before I respond to your two questions, I would like to share with you a few thoughts. As you are well aware, Peter comments on how our brother Paul is twisted and distorted by "lawless" men, and how it is difficult to understand the wisdom given in some of Paul's writings. This issue of "WHY" the Torah was added is one of those difficult to understand writings. But I will say this much, if one clearly grasps how Paul is thinking here, many of Paul's other difficult sayings, which appear to be against the Torah, will become easier to understand.

1. You asked:
"Are you saying that "transgression" is clearly something different than "sin"?

There is a difference, I'll try to explain. In our day and time, Congress can pass a law, and anyone who "breaks" that law PRIOR to when it is passed, is not held accountable. This is how Paul was looking at the Torah and transgression. He saw how mankind was sinning BEFORE the Torah was given, but the sin was not, imputed sin. Imputed sin IS transgression (#3847, parabasis). The Torah needs to set in place for sin to become transgression. Paul speaks very clearly concerning this:
Quote:
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where NO law is, there is NO transgression
Quote:
(#3847, parabasis).
You need a command for a sinner to become a transgressor. Adam and Eve were transgressors because they broke a command that was given them. This transgression, this breaking of a command is what INCREASED, because Yahweh has given us many more commands that can now be broken THROUGH the Torah.

You mention the Greek word for transgression (#3847, parabasis) and indicate that it's meaning in Gal 3:19 might be better rendered as "apostasy." Whether you want to look at it as "apostasy" or "accountable/imputed sin," Gal 3:19 and Rom 5:14 are speaking of the same thing--breaking a given command:
Quote:
Galatians 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions
Quote:
(#3847, parabasis), having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression
(#3847, parabasis), who is a figure of him that was to come.
Adam broke a given command and that became imputed/accountable sin, which Paul describes as "transgression" (#3847, parabasis). When Yahweh added the Covenant of Sinai to the previous Covenants, Paul reasons that it was added to "increase" transgression (#3847, parabasis). It wasn't because the Israelite's transgression (#3847, parabasis) had increased, it was to increase transgression/imputed sin. You can't have imputed sin/transgression without a command/Torah. Many commands came with the giving of the Torah, and that increased the transgression of Adam. This is precisely how Paul was reasoning, and he reasoned this way for a purpose, so that He could properly explain the Grace of Elohim.

2. To be sure, Yahweh did express Himself to a "chosen" or "select" few, concerning His righteousness. Those whom He did express Himself to were recipients of His Spirit, and they followed from their heart the desires of Yahweh. The vast majority of mankind neither had His Spirit, nor were given the commands of Yahweh. (This is why Paul stated [Rom 5:12-14] that sin was in the world BEFORE the Torah was given, but that sin was NOT IMPUTED, because the vast majority had NOT been given the commandments.) As I wrote earlier, the giving of the Torah was used as a means to help identify the True Seed of Abraham. Giving the Torah to "carnally minded" men was a guarantee that no one could claim to be like Abraham. Abraham kept ALL of what Yahweh commanded him (Gen 26:5), and to be Abraham's seed, one would have to do what Abraham did:
Quote:
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Yahshua saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
The True Messiah, the True Seed of Abraham would not be a transgressor. The giving of the Torah made certain that no physical/carnal seed of Abraham could claim to be like Abraham. The giving/adding of the Torah to the other Covenants, identified sinners to be transgressors/imputed sinners. So, like Gal 3:19 states, it was FOR THE SAKE (#5485/charin) of transgressions that the Torah was added. Transgression/imputed sin was given to sinners, until the True Seed should come and be identified by His works, to be like Abraham.

If you do follow me on this topic as to WHY the Torah was added, I would like to continue on in discussing the Grace of Elohim. Let me know?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew
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Old 12-27-2014, 05:19 AM
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The halakhah combines both views: women may not wear armor or clothing, hairdos, or other adornments that are characteristic of men, nor may men wear what is characteristic of women. {what is characteristic of each sex is defined by local practice}
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