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Old 04-21-2003, 06:47 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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I thought about this topic a lot today while I was working. Sometimes these things we (when I say we I mean myself, you, and the other people I talk to on the net) talk about really grab me, and I think about them pretty much all the time. After dinner, I grabbed my bible and started reading Luke's account of the Crucifixion through the Resurrection. I chose Luke's because I remember reading somewhere before how Luke kept such a great historical record of the events- or more so than the "other three". Anyhow, this is what I've found...
Quote:
Luke 24:1-21
1On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " 8Then they remembered his words.
9When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.
13Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.
17He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?"
18They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?"
19"What things?" he asked.
20"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.
According to Luke, the "third day" was the "first day of the week", not the Sabbath.

matt

Last edited by Matthew23; 04-23-2003 at 12:32 AM.
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Old 04-23-2003, 01:37 AM
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hyssop hyssop is offline
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Matt,

On the surface, Luke 24:21 certainly does seem to indicate that Sunday, the 1st day of the week, was the third day and not the fourth day from Y'shua's death and burial. If you consider Sunday as the third day (and not the fourth), I would like to see how you work out the day and time of his death and burial (would that be Thursday, now?) and the day and time of his resurrection such that it fits Matt 12:40 (3 days and 3 nights). Y'shua gave 3 days and 3 nights as his sign; how did he fulfill it? Please, lay it out for me--I can't get it to work out with Sunday early afternoon (a considerable time after his resurrection) being the third day.

I've done a little searching on the Net, and found a plausible explanation to what Luke was saying. This excerpt (sorry about the length) is from an article written by Roy A. Reinhold:
Excerpt from Jes_s (Yeshua) was Crucified ... on a Wednesday Afternoon (part 2) <Link to Page>
. . .

I'd like to face the most troublesome verse first (Luke 24:21), that of the two men walking to Emmaus on Sunday, who were later joined by a stranger who explained all the scriptures to them. We know they were walking on Sunday, the first day of the week, because it is clearly stated so in Luke 24:1, where the sequence of events started. Here are 3 translations of Luke 24:21:
(KJV) But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel; and besides all this, today is the third day since these things were done

(NKJV) But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, today is the third day since these things happened.

(NASB) But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened.

Yes, the walk to Emmaus was on Sunday, but it is a misunderstanding and mistranslation that Sunday was the third day since the crucifixion. Instead of writing down the verse in Greek, which most of you don't know, I decided that I ought to use what others have shown concerning this verse (Luke 24:21), which will have greater weight with you.

The Greek word for "since" after "the third day" in Luke 24:21 actually means "away from". Away from is the same as our "after". Yeshua died late on a Wednesday afternoon and was laid in the grave at sundown on Wednesday as Thursday was beginning. He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights on Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night and Thursday day, Friday day, and Saturday day using our reckoning of days and nights. He rose as the Sabbath was ending. So He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights and rose after 3 days and 3 nights
while the Sabbath was ending. So He rose on the third day. Sunday is therefore the 4th day. The actual literal Greek translation of Luke 24:21 is:

But surely also together with all these things, it brings a third day away from which all these things occurred.

Translators take the cumbersome literal translation and make it flow , taking some liberty with it, but trying to retain accuracy. The 4th day is "away from" the third day. So it is apparent that the verse is literally saying they were walking and talking after the third day, which was Sunday. However, have other translators understood this point too? Yes, let's look at 3 of them. (Luke 24:21)

Moffatt Translation--by James Moffatt
....but he is dead, and that is three days ago!

The New Berkeley Version in Modern English--Gerrit Verkugl
Moreover, three days have already passed, since all these events occurred.

The Syriac New Testament Translated Into English From The Peshitto Version -- James Murdock
...and lo, three days have passed since all these things have occurred.

The Syriac Reading can be confirmed by 2 of the oldest manuscripts in Estrangelo Aramaic: the Sinaitic Palimpset and the Curetonian Syriac.

There is exceedingly ample evidence that the correct translation for Luke 24:21 is that the KJV should read, "today is after the third day since these things were done." As the information above shows, the oldest and multiple original manuscripts show that "away from" is the correct word for since, and shows us that they were talking about Sunday being the 4th day since Yeshua was laid in the grave.

. . .


I have one last point to make about Luke 24:21. This occurred to me last night before I found the article by Mr. Reinhold, and he also mentioned it:

Think about why the disciples made the comment . . . here they are, walking down the road, and a stranger comes up to them and asks them why they are sad. They proceeded to tell this stranger how this prophet, Y'shua, was condemned and crucified. AND, Y'shua had told them that he was going to rise on the third day, thus in their minds to become the redeemer of Israel. So, if they thought that this day that they were walking down the road was the third day, they would be still be waiting for Y'shua to rise from the dead. However, if today is after the third day since these things were done, they are sad--here, they thought Y'shua was the Messiah, and his third day prediction didn't come true.

If this makes sense, great. If not, and you still think that Sunday afternoon was the third day, please lay out the death, burial, and resurrection timeline so I, too, can see what you see.

Peace,
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Old 04-24-2003, 06:53 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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The two men on the "road to Emmaus" were sad because they thought Yeshua was going to redeem Israel (v.21). They didn't even realize that Yeshua was supposed to come out of the grave (v.25), or they would have known what had happened when they heard about the empty tomb (v.22-24). So, they weren't sad because they thought he hadn't risen. They were sad because they thought he had not "redeemed" Israel. They simply didn't understand- yet.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hyssop
On the surface, Luke 24:21 certainly does seem to indicate that Sunday, the 1st day of the week, was the third day and not the fourth day from Y'shua's death and burial. If you consider Sunday as the third day (and not the fourth), I would like to see how you work out the day and time of his death and burial (would that be Thursday, now?) and the day and time of his resurrection such that it fits Matt 12:40 (3 days and 3 nights). Y'shua gave 3 days and 3 nights as his sign; how did he fulfill it? Please, lay it out for me--I can't get it to work out with Sunday early afternoon (a considerable time after his resurrection) being the third day.
This makes the most sense to me:
Wednesday-crucifixion.
Wed at sunset-stone rolled in front of the tomb
Thursday-First day of Unleavened Bread "High Sabbath Day"
Friday-spices prepared by the women.
Saturday at sunset-Yeshua resurrected.
Sunday morning-empty tomb discovered.

I'm not saying this is absolutely they way the events happened. This is what makes the most sense to me though. The thing that gives me the most trouble is that we have scriptures that tell us He would rise on the third day AND we have scruptures that tell us He would rise after three days... THIS MESSES ME UP.

It IS possible that He died on Thursday. But then, in order for Yeshua to be in the grave for a full three days and nights, He wouldn't have risen until late Sunday! Perhaps the 72 hours isn't meant to be taken literally?????
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Old 04-26-2003, 06:11 PM
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hyssop hyssop is offline
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Originally posted by Matthew 23
They didn't even realize that Yeshua was supposed to come out of the grave (v.25), or they would have known what had happened when they heard about the empty tomb (v.22-24).
Well, Matt, one would certainly think that, had Y'shua told them that he was going to rise on the third day, they would have realized that he was resurrected when they heard of the empty tomb. But, there are lots of things that we, looking back, wonder why they didn't see them. However, regarding whether or not they thought that Y'shua was supposed to rise, I think they knew:
Third day predictions to disciples
Matt 16 (KJV)
[21] From that time forth began Jes_s to show unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief prests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Matt 17 (KJV)
[22] And while they abode in Galilee, Jes_s said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: [23] And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Mark 9 (KJV)
[31] For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. [32] But they understood not that saying, and were afraid to ask him.
Mark 9:31 states that they did not understand what saying? That he would rise the third day? If that is the case, his disciples understood less than those who did not believe.
Matthew 27 (KJV)
[62] Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, [63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. [64] Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
However, there is, in my opinion, evidence that indicates that the disciples didn't have a clue--even after being told beforehand. It kind of "blows one's mind" to realize that they knew so little.

As far as your timeline is concerned, I agree. Y'shua had to be killed on Wednesday in order for everything to work out. To speak to your issue with "on the third day" and "after three days," One explanation could be that he was buried just before sunset on Wednesday and resurrected just before sunset on Saturday: after 72 hours (3 days), but on the third day (on Saturday just before sunset)--that seems to be a logical way to put all of the pieces of the "puzzle" together and have them fit (or, at least, most of them).
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  #20  
Old 04-26-2003, 10:46 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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Let's face it: The Sabbath resurrection theory AND the Sunday resurrection theory both have their arguments, but I believe the SHEAF of FIRSTFUITS answers the question. Also, I'd like you to take a look at one more verse:
Quote:
Mark 16:9
Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
an interesting side note on this one in my NIV study bible says:"The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20."

matt
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  #21  
Old 04-30-2003, 09:25 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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Hyssop,

I've been talking over at Lo-ammi about the Sabbath, and the ways in which the Sabbath is a "type and shadow". Check the thread entitled "A public spectacle".

matt
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  #22  
Old 04-30-2003, 10:31 PM
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hyssop hyssop is offline
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Got it, MadeByFire.

Thanks
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  #23  
Old 04-30-2003, 10:38 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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I changed the name (at lo-ammi) after I got a new computer and had to "re-enter" everything... I left it the same here because I don't want to lose my status as one of the top posters!

Did you know I visited Spying's church? The people there were very pleasant. I stayed and talked with them 'till about two o'clock that day!

I would like to meet you sometime as well. I can come to your church service sometime, or perhaps you could come to St. Peters one Sunday morning! I attend "Spencer Creek Church of God" on Willott Road.

matt
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:00 AM
pedrie123 pedrie123 is offline
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I visited a public spectacle..it explains a lot..however reading through these arguments and various general know arguments about the Sabbath has changed my own perspective..
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Old 06-06-2011, 05:20 AM
ChrisFoy ChrisFoy is offline
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I am glad that I join this forum, so I may get to know about various things.
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  #26  
Old 02-17-2012, 11:39 PM
natalie26 natalie26 is offline
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Thank you for sharing all that post. I really learned a lot from you guys.
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