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  #46  
Old 09-19-2003, 09:20 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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What I wanted you to see is that the verse in Hebrew says:
"YHWH, He (is) the Elohim! YHWH, He (is) the Elohim!"

YHWH is Elohim (G-d), He is the only true elohim. Look what He said through Isaiah:
Quote:
Isaiah 44:6-8
6 "This is what YHWH says-
Israel's King and Redeemer, YHWH Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God (the Hebrew for this is elohim).
7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come-
yes, let him foretell what will come.
8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
matt

p.s. I haven't heard from Sis. Oviatt, yet. Maybe she'll have time to write this weekend...
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  #47  
Old 09-19-2003, 10:12 PM
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There is no other Rock, Christ is the only one.

Yea Sister Oviatt must be busy, maybe she will this weekend.
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  #48  
Old 09-19-2003, 11:50 PM
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Why does YHWH say there is no other elohim?

also...

Look at these:
Quote:
Mark 5:2-7
2When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.
6When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!"
As I'm sure you agree, Jesus is the Son of the Most High G-d. The bible tells me that YHWH is the Most High G-d (the only true elohim):
Quote:
Genesis 14:18-22
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand."
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself."
22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to YHWH, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth..."
Do you see why I believe in the Trinity?

with love,
matt
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  #49  
Old 09-20-2003, 03:57 PM
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I'll get back to you on this one got a busy day, maybe, I might be back. Plans might change.
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  #50  
Old 09-21-2003, 05:26 PM
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We have no other Elohim, there is only one for us that does not mean there are not more.
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  #51  
Old 09-21-2003, 10:49 PM
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Why does YHWH say that he is the only elohim? Why does Abram call YHWH "G-d Most High"?

Jennifer, I don't agree with the LDS doctrine that YHWH has a father, because the bible tells me different. I personally don't believe that the "G-d the Father" of Mormonism exists. When the missionaries came to my house and asked me to pray and ask G-d if the Book of Mormon is true, I realized after about 4 months of asking questions that it is impossible for me to pray about it as the missionaries would have me to do, because- I can't pray to a G-d that I don't believe in.

But you're right. There is only one elohim for us. The bible tells us that His Name is YHWH. And yes, there are other elohim(s), but we are forbidden by YHWH to worship any of them.

I would like to ask you, why does Peter say that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of YHWH?
Quote:
Acts 2:29-36
29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
" 'The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
35until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."
36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Peter was quoting what David wrote in Psalm 110:1 which reads:
YHWH said to my Lord,
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

your friend,
matt

Last edited by Matthew23; 09-22-2003 at 06:51 PM.
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  #52  
Old 09-22-2003, 07:34 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Matthew23
[B]Why does YHWH say that he is the only elohim? Why does Abram call YHWH "G-d Most High"?

He is the only one we need to know about right now.

I respect the fact you choose not to agree with certain beliefs it is your choice not to. You are right you can not pray to a God you do not believe in. Faith must come first. The Bible is not written to tell us all, only what one needs to know at the time in their life. If it told us all we would not need God would we.


"I would like to ask you, why does Peter say that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of YHWH?"

I'm not sure if it means literally that Christ is sitting on His right hand. There are many symbols in the Bible, the Spirit is the only one who can reveal the real meaning to a sincere seeker. It could mean that Christ has become one with His Father. When we are raised from the dead we will either be on the right or left hand of Christ. Those on His right will be His followers they will become one with Christ.

My thoughts of the meaning.
Your Friend, Jennifer
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  #53  
Old 09-22-2003, 09:35 PM
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Jennifer said:
He is the only one we need to know about right now.

Matthew23: Yes, He is.

Jennifer said:
I respect the fact you choose not to agree with certain beliefs it is your choice not to. You are right you can not pray to a God you do not believe in. Faith must come first.

Faith in what? Faith in something that G-d's word tells me isn't there? If someone comes and tells me that Batman is my Savior, I'm going to say, "no he's not. That's not what the bible says." Then they might say, "Faith must come first." Would that make any sense?

Here's what we need to do: Frame our beliefs around what the Word of G-d says, and not frame what the bible says around what our beliefs are.


Jennifer said:
The Bible is not written to tell us all, only what one needs to know at the time in their life. If it told us all we would not need God would we.

There's one thing that I know G-d wants to make clear: that there is no other true g-d except Him alone...
Quote:
Isaiah 43:10
"You are my witnesses," declares YHWH,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me
.
Jennifer, I've been thinking and praying a lot about what we've been discussing. I'm not praying for you to see things my way. I'm praying that you, and myself, will see it G-d's way.

Jennifer said:
I'm not sure if it means literally that Christ is sitting on His right hand. There are many symbols in the Bible, the Spirit is the only one who can reveal the real meaning to a sincere seeker. It could mean that Christ has become one with His Father. When we are raised from the dead we will either be on the right or left hand of Christ. Those on His right will be His followers they will become one with Christ.

Jennifer, according to Peter, the Holy Spirit was there with David when He wrote Psalm 110. He has already revealed what needs to be revealed: that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of G-d (YHWH). There's no trick to it. It just means what it says. This is by no means the only place where the OT shows us that YHWH is the Father of Jesus...

Look at one of the most popular messianic sciptures in the OT: Isaiah 53. Look at verse 6, it says that "YHWH has laid on him the iniquity of us all". On whom is the iniquity laid on? Look at verse 10, it says that "it was YHWH's will to crush him". To crush who? It says that "the will of YHWH will prosper in his hand". In who's hand?

Look at Psalm 22. The first verse was quoted by Jesus while He hanged on the cross. Continue reading the Psalm, and every time you see "the LORD" say "Jehovah" instead. You will see the context that tells you that YHWH (Jehovah) is the Father of Jesus.

sincerely,
matt
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  #54  
Old 09-22-2003, 10:15 PM
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"Faith in what? Faith in something that G-d's word tells me isn't there? If someone comes and tells me that Batman is my Savior, I'm going to say, "no he's not. That's not what the bible says." Then they might say, "Faith must come first." Would that make any sense?"

Ok it's better to say believe in, you can believe in many things that does not mean that what you believe in is the absolute truth. It's true you believe it. that does not make it true. What is truth?
True faith in the Bible is a good thing, is that enough though. What if someone does not believe in the Bible? Are they worse off then someone who believes yet does not follow the teachings?



'Jennifer, according to Peter, the Holy Spirit was there with David when He wrote Psalm 110. He has already revealed what needs to be revealed: that Jesus is sitting at the right hand of G-d (YHWH). There's no trick to it. It just means what it says. This is by no means the only place where the OT shows us that YHWH is the Father of Jesus..."

So YHWH is the Father of Jesus yet Christ is YHWH, Christ is our Father. So does this make Christ the Father of Himself. Sounds silly to be He went to sit with Himself. It's not very logical.
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  #55  
Old 09-22-2003, 10:40 PM
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"Look at Psalm 22. The first verse was quoted by Jesus while He hanged on the cross. Continue reading the Psalm, and every time you see "the LORD" say "Jehovah" instead. You will see the context that tells you that YHWH (Jehovah) is the Father of Jesus."

To me that verse is refering to what men said of a man not of the Lord, a life which was a shadow of what would be. in verse 6 he refers to himself as a worm, he is despised by me yet does not turn from the Lord. In Matthew 27:42 it says: "He trusted in God..." Why the need of a change from Lord to God?
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  #56  
Old 09-23-2003, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer
So YHWH is the Father of Jesus yet Christ is YHWH, Christ is our Father. So does this make Christ the Father of Himself. Sounds silly to be He went to sit with Himself. It's not very logical.
Messiah is not the Father. He is the Word. See John 1:1-14. You know, it's not logical to me neither, but it says what it says. But should I bend what the word says in order for it to make sense to my little bitty brain? Believe me, I have had trouble with the doctrine of the trinity in the past. It's not just something that I always believed in without a doubt. But ever since I started to actually read my bible, my doubts have begun to vanish, and the trinity makes more sense than it did before I began to search it out.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer To me that verse is refering to what men said of a man not of the Lord, a life which was a shadow of what would be. in verse 6 he refers to himself as a worm, he is despised by me yet does not turn from the Lord. In Matthew 27:42 it says: "He trusted in God..." Why the need of a change from Lord to God?
Do you believe that Psalm 22 is a prophecy of the Messiah?

Here's another example that I would like you to read...

Read Luke 4:14-21. After you've read that, turn to Isaiah 61:1-2 and check out the scripture that Jesus read in the synagogue and said was fulfilled in Him. Then answer to yourself the following questions (you don't have to reply to me)...

Who's spirit is on Jesus?
Who has anointed Jesus?
Jesus has proclaimed the year of Who's favor?

I don't expect you to just drop everything you've ever believed in, and say, "Matt, you're right!" What I hope that you do though, with the scriptures that I've shown to you, is think real hard about who G-d is. It's very important for us to know who He is, as Jesus said in John 17:3, "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true G-d, and Yeshua Messiah, whom you have sent".

blessings to you
your friend,
matt
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  #57  
Old 09-23-2003, 07:26 PM
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John 1:1-14. Right Christ is God the Son of God. He was with God and is the God of this earth. He was given directions on how to create the earth from His Father. Thus He is the creator of the earth making Him the Father of the creation. Still He was with His Father who taught Him.
"Do you believe that Psalm 22 is a prophecy of the Messiah?" Yes

Read Luke 4:14-21. After you've read that, turn to Isaiah 61:1-2 and check out the scripture that Jesus read in the synagogue and said was fulfilled in Him. Then answer to yourself the following questions (you don't have to reply to me)...

Who's spirit is on Jesus?God's
Who has anointed Jesus? God
Jesus has proclaimed the year of Who's favor? the LORD's
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  #58  
Old 09-23-2003, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer
Who's spirit is on Jesus?God's
Who has anointed Jesus? God
Jesus has proclaimed the year of Who's favor? the LORD's
which G-d?..

Isaiah 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord (Adonai) GOD (YHWH) is upon me; because the LORD (YHWH) hath anointed me to preach...


The King James translators opted to translate YHWH as "GOD" in the first part of the verse (notice how it's in all caps like "the LORD"). This one was a little tricky, but the Hebrew no doubt tells us who has anointed Jesus with His spirit- YHWH.

I'm not going to give up on this . Unless you'd like me to shut up about it .

matt
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  #59  
Old 09-23-2003, 10:04 PM
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Hey Matt,
So what if the word LORD is Lord?

"I'm not going to give up on this . Unless you'd like me to shut up about it ."

You don't need to give up, you never will learn anything or get anywhere if you give up. You can go for as long as you wish. I let you know one thing though. Which I am sure you already know. It's a lot harder to move a boulder then a pebble.

Take Care,
Jennifer
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  #60  
Old 09-23-2003, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer
Hey Matt,
So what if the word LORD is Lord?
Let's talk about something else for a bit. I'm starting to get frustrated.

Did I tell you that I read most of the BOM. I'm into 3 Nephi.

matt
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