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Old 11-19-2002, 01:48 PM
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Simchat Torah, Bait and Switch?

Quote:
Simchat Torah wrote:

More than one Moshiach, There shall be two
The Rabbi's have always recognized an apparent conflict between certain Messianic passages. For example:

==========================================
R. Alexandri said: Rabbi Joshua opposed two verses:
It is written:
And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds
of heaven. (Dan. 7:13)
Whilst it is written: [behold, your king comes to you...] lowly, and riding upon an ass! (Zech. 9:9)
(b.San. 98a)
==============================================

The Rabbinic "two Messiah" theory was one of several answers that the Rabbis found for these contradictions.
Simchat Torah, I don't think your deceptive so perhaps you just haven't thought the above through. It seems much more like standard missionary junk than someone who wished to look at things from a Jewish perspecitve.

You give a quote from Shas which resolves an apparent conflict about Moshiach. But how was the conflict resolved? You imply it was resolved by a dual Messiah theory, but the text very clearly resolves it by saying that Moshiach ben Dovid could come in different ways depending upon the merit of Israel.

What you did not present however is any evidence to support your premis that Moshiach ben Yosef is the result of Rabbinic reconciliation of difficult passages. In fact it is not. Moshiach ben Yosef is known from tradition and based on scriptures which indicate a completely distinct person from Moshiach ben Dovid.
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Old 11-19-2002, 10:40 PM
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First and foremost I would like to express that I am not being a missionary to the Torah observant community of Jews!!! No, instead, if you read the thread labeled Y'shua's sacrafice you will see indeed that I do not believe that Y'shua (whom I hold as the one who fully contained the spirit of Moshiach ben Yosef) came for those who are Torah observant, but rather to bring those who were not walking in the light of Torah back to Teshuvah, and return unto Torah.

You stated:
"You give a quote from Shas which resolves an apparent conflict about Moshiach. But how was the conflict resolved? You imply it was resolved by a dual Messiah theory, but the text very clearly resolves it by saying that Moshiach ben Dovid could come in different ways depending upon the merit of Israel."


First, I would say that you imply that it resolves the passage by merely presenting various comings of the Moshiach ben David... both of us would be guilty of assuming. However, I support my theory with a wide array of quotes from multiple Rabbinical sources.

You then say:
"What you did not present however is any evidence to support your premis that Moshiach ben Yosef is the result of Rabbinic reconciliation of difficult passages."

No, I presented several sources that indicate just that. This whole section is filled with such sources... see the rest of the thread at:

http://www.tzaddikim.org/forums/show...hp?threadid=63

Shalom Visitor,
Yafet.
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"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-20-2002, 12:38 AM
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Again I think you missed the point, I did not claim you were a missionary, merely that your approach was not distinguishable from those of a missionary.

You are quite incorect that my approach to the Gemora cited is an assumption, on the contrary it is the pshat of the Gemora. The conflict is clearly resolved by saying Moshiach will do A or B NOT Moshiach1 will do A and Moshiach2 will do B. Its not debatable.

And while you did quote sources they did not support your thesis. None of them gave examples of Moshiach ben Yosef being the result of a resolution of two apparently conflicting verses.
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Old 11-20-2002, 09:54 AM
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The idea of two messiahs, or one messiah coming twice (a more ancient thought, such as: "Like Moses, Messiah will be revealed, then hidden, then revealed again." [Bamidbar Rabbah 11:2] ), is by far and away a Jewish set of theology. It is undisputed in Judaism and can be read about in many places...

You say:
"What you did not present however is any evidence to support your premis that Moshiach ben Yosef is the result of Rabbinic reconciliation of difficult passages."

as well as:
"None of them gave examples of Moshiach ben Yosef being the result of a resolution of two apparently conflicting verses."

No???

Here I quoted a debate about a lowly messiah and one who is king ruling from the clouds:

"R. Alexandri said: Rabbi Joshua opposed two verses:
It is written:
And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds
of heaven. (Dan. 7:13)
Whilst it is written: [behold, your king comes to you...] lowly, and riding upon an ass! (Zech. 9:9)
(b.San. 98a)"

Obviously, these Rabbis see an apparent conflict between these two verses. There couldn't be a more clear example! I had done exactly that which you denied... I brought an example of a Rabbi quoting from two apparently conflicting verses... and thus was born the idea of Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben David!

The following clearly points out a distinction between Moshiach ben Yosef and Moshiach ben Dovid (I appologize for the length... this will force me to make another post because of the word limit per post...)

==============================================

The following is taken from the Shottenstein Talmud and involves a discussion of Zechariah 12:12:

The Gemara turns it attention to the verse that has just been cited:


What is the nature of this eulogy that the verse describes?


The Gemara replies:


R'Dosa and the Rabbis disagreed about it. One said that the eulogy will be for the Messiah decended from the tribe of Joseph who will have been killed in battle - while one said that it will be for the evil inclination that will have been "killed", i.e. eradicated, at that future time.


The Gemara questions the second view:


It is understandable according to the one who said that the eulogy will be for the Messiah descended from Joseph who will have been killed; that is why the mourning will be so bitter, as it is written:

They will look toward me, the one they have stabbed; they will mourn over him
as one mourns over an only [child] etc.

The death of God's annointed is certainly cause for great grief. But according to the one who said that the eulogy will be for the evil inclination who will have been killed, does that warrant a eulogy? On the contrary, it warrants a celebration! So why will they weep?


The Gemara answers:


It is as R' Yehudah expounded: In the future time, the Holy One, Blessed is He, will bring the evil inclination and slaughter it in the pressence of the righteous and in the presence of the wicked. To the righteous the evil inclination will appear like a high mountain that can hardly be scaled, and to the wicked it will appear like a strand of hair that can easily be snapped. These will weep and these too will weep. The righteous will weep and say: "How were we able to overcome such a high mountain?" And the wicked will weep and say: "How were we not able to overcome this strand of hair?" And so too, the Holy One, Blessed is He, will wonder with them, as it says: "Thus said Hashem, Lord of Hosts: As it will be wondrous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in those days, so will it be wondrous in my eyes etc."


The Gemara cites a related teaching:


R' Assi said: Regarding the evil inclination: initially it resembles a spider's thread, but ultimately it resembles a cart rope. As it says: Woe unto those who draw iniquity with cords of nothingness and sin as with a cart rope. What begins as cords of nothingness ultimately develops into cart ropes!


The Gemara cites a Baraisa which relates to the death of the Messiah
descended from Joseph:


The Rabbis taught in a Baraisa: THE HOLY ONE, BLESSED IS HE, WILL SAY TO THE MESSIAH DESCENDED FROM DAVID (WHO WILL BE REVEALED, we pray, SPEEDILY IN OUR DAY): ASK A BOON OF ME AND I WILL GRANT IT TO YOU. AS IT SAYS: I SHALL PROCLAIM IT THAT IT SHOULD BE INSCRIBED AS A REMEMBRANCE etc...I HAVE
BEGOTTEN YOU THIS DAY. ASK OF ME AND I WILL GIVE NATIONS FOR YOUR INHERITANCE...BUT HAVING SEEN THAT THE MESSIAH DESCENDED FROM JOSEPH WAS KILLED, HE [THE MESSIAH DESCENDED OF DAVID] WILL SAY TO HIM: MASTER OF THE WORLD, I ASK YOU FOR NOTHING BUT LIFE itself. [GOD] WILL ANSWER HIM: As for LIFE, BEFORE YOU SAID IT YOUR FATHER DAVID ALREADY PROPHESIED ABOUT IT and his prayer that you should live has already GRANTED IT TO HIM etc.


The Gemara returns to the subject of the evil inclination:


Rav Avira expounded and others say it was R' Yehudah ben Levi: The evil
inclination has seven names. The Holy One, Blessed is He, called it "evil" as it says: for the inclination of Man's heart is evil from his youth. Moses called it "uncircumcized" as it says: And you shall circumcize the foreskin of your heart, i.e. you shall remove the evil inclination from your heart. David called it "impure" as it says: A pure heart create for me O God, i.e. a heart pure of the evil inclination, implying that there is such a thing as an impure heart, for the presence of the evil inclination is an impurity. Solomon called it "the enemy" as it says: If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink, for you will be heaping coals on his head, and Hashem will reward you.


The Gemara adds a homiletic interpretation of the conclusion of this verse:


Do not read the conclusion of the verse: Hashem will reward you (y'shalem lach), but, rather, Hashem will pacify him [the evil inclination] for you (yashlimenu lach).


The Gemara continues:


Isaiah called it "a stumbling block", as it says: Pave! Pave! Clear a road! Remove the stumbling block from My people's path. Ezekiel called it "a stone", as it says: and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. Joel called it "the hidden one", as it says: And I will distance the hidden one from you.


The Gemara elaborates on this verse, which describes the ultimate destruction
of the evil inclination:


The Rabbis taught in a Baraisa: AND I WILL DISTANCE THE HIDDEN ONE FROM YOU. THIS refers to the EVIL INCLINATION WHICH IS HIDDEN AND LURKS IN MAN'S HEART. AND I WILL BANISH HIM TO AN ARID AND DESOLATE LAND, that is, TO A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE NO PEOPLE FOR HIM TO INCITE. HIS FACE TO THE FIRST SEA, FOR HE [the evil inclination] LAID HIS EYES ON THE FIRST TEMPLE AND
DESTROYED IT. AND KILLED THE TORAH SCHOLARS THAT WERE IN IT. AND HIS END TO THE LAST SEA, FOR HE LAID HIS EYES ON THE SECOND TEMPLE AND DESTROYED IT, AND KILLED THE TORAH SCHOLARS THAT WERE IN IT. AND HIS FOUL ODOR WILL RISE, this
stench comes from his perversiveness, FOR HE LEAVES THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD AND INCITES THE ENEMIES OF ISRAEL to sin.


The Gemara expounds the final phrase of the verse:
FOR HE HAS DONE GREATLY. Abaye said: This means that he incites Torah scholars above all others. As in the following episode: For Abaye once overheard a certain man say to a certain woman, "Let us rise early and set out together on our way." Thereupon, Abaye said to himself: I will follow behind them in order to keep them from transgression. He followed behind them for a distance of three parsahs in a meadow. When they reached a crossroads and took leave of one another, {Abaye} heard them say cordially to each other: Our paths lead far apart, so we cannot travel any further together, but the company would have been pleasant had we been able to do so. Upon seeing this, Abaye said to himself: Were it my enemy who made the journey with this woman, he would have been unable to restran himself from sin. He went and leaned against a door bolt and was despondent until a certain old man came and taught him: Whoever is greater than his fellow, his evil inclination is greater than his fellow's as well.

==================================================
==========================================
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Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165

Last edited by simchat_torah; 11-20-2002 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 11-20-2002, 10:09 AM
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This following quote clearly shows that Messiah son of David will follow Messiah son of Josef:

=============================================

==========================================

The following is Footnote 1 from the Shottenstein Talmud (Succah 52a):

Zechariah 12:12


This verse comes from Zechariah's prophetic protrayal of the war of Gog and Magog, and the mournful eulogies that will attend the death of the Messiah from the tribe of Joseph, whose advent will precede that of the Messiah, son of David, and who will be killed in that war. From the verse it is evident that even at such a sorrowful time men and women shall gather separately (Rashi).[At the time of the future redemption, the Messiah descended from Joseph will appear first to save the Jewish people.However, he will be killed during the war of Gog and Magog, and the full redemption will be brought about solely through the Messiah descended from David (see Maharsha; see also Targum Yonasan to Exodus 40:11; Bamidbar Rabbah 14:1; Rav Saadiah Gaon, Emunos V'Dei'os 8:5; Ramban, Commentary to Exodus 17:9 and to Song of Songs 8:13; Maharal, Netzach Yisrael 36). It should be noted that, according to Ramchal (Kinas Hashem Tzevaos, Bnei Brak 1980), based on Zohar, the decree of the death of the Messiah descended from Joseph has been nullified. According to Shnei Lchos HaBris (beis David 1:51), the period of the Messiah descended from Joseph will include the ingathering of the Exiles and the rebuilding of the Temple, but not a subverting of the natural order; death and sin will continue to exist. But the period of the Messiah descended from David will usher in a new natural order, in which death and sin will have no place.]

==============================================




Again, this next quote shows that Messiah ben Josef is to predate Messiah ben David:

==============================================
==========================================

R. Berekiah said in the name of R. Isaac: As it is written, And the Lord showed me four craftsmen (Zech. II, 3), namely, Elijah, the Messiah, Melchizedek, and the War Messiah.
[Lit.,the priest anointed for war', an expression originally applied to the priest who accompanied the troops. Cf. Suk. 52a, where instead of ' War Messiah ' we have ' Messiah son of Joseph'. The two are probably identical, Messiah the son of Joseph being regarded as the forerunner of the Messiah during the wars that will precede his advent.]

---Song of Songs Rabbah 2:33

==================================================



And there's more still that shows Messiah son of David and Messiah son of Josef:
==============================================
==========================================


"Mysteries of R. Shim'on ben Yohai (Midrash, date uncertain):
And Armilaus will join battle with Messiah, the son of Ephraim, in the East gate . . .; and Messiah, the son of Ephraim, will die there, and Israel will mourn for him. And afterwards the Holy One will reveal to them Messiah, the son of David, whom Israel will desire to stone, saying, Thou speakest falsely; already is the Messiah slain, and there is non other Messiah to stand up (after him): and so they will despise him, as it is written, "Despised and forlorn of men;" but he will turn and hide himself from them, according to the words, "Like one hiding his face from us."

---The Suffering Servant of Isaiah
By Driver and Neubauer
Page 32

==================================================



I could go on and on and on here... but one last one, ok?
==============================================
==========================================

The Rabbis maintained: OX is an allusion to the one anointed for battle,2 as it says, His firstling bullock, majesty is his (Deut. XXXIII, 17)3; ASS refers to the royal Messiah, for it says of him, Lowly, and riding upon an ass (Zech. IX, 9); FLOCKS refers to Israel, as it says, And ye are My sheep, the sheep of My pasture (Ezek. XXXIV, 31);
AND MEN-SERVANTS AND MAID-SERVANTS [likewise alludes to Israel, as it says], Behold, as the eyes of the servants unto the hand of their master (Ps. CXXIII, 2).THAT I MAY FIND FAVOUR [GRACE]-as it says, Be gracious unto us (ib. 3).

(2) The Messiah who would conduct the final war; according to tradition he would be descended from Joseph, and would be the forerunner of the real Messiah, descended from David.
(3) This refers to Joseph, and is understood to allude to the Messiah descended from him.

---Genesis Rabbah 75:6
==============================================

All of these show a resolution to apparently conflicting verses!
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"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165

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Old 11-20-2002, 10:24 AM
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In conclusion I have to wonder many things Visitor...

You know the apparent resolution of Moshiach ben Josef and Moshiach ben David. We have discussed this before. I have to wonder... are you now trying to be coy? I can only assume such as you have titled this thread in a derrogatory manner. As well, you accuse me of being deceptive (intentional or not) on top of an equation of missionary speech.... all of which you blatantly know not to be true. This is all with consideration that you also are concious already of the theology of Moshiach ben Yosef and Dovid, yet now you pretend it does not exist, or rather pretend it is not in reference to Judaism (but my own deceptive imaginitive creation).

As a newly elected moderator of this forum, I would ask that you would refrain from derrogatory titles to threads. If you want to debate, that is fine, and if you want to even stoop to personal comments that is fine (within reason) but please keep it out of the titles.

Be well,
Japheth.
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"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-21-2002, 12:18 AM
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Again, I do not have time to answer in full, I worked a 12 hour shift today and am schedualed 14 tommorow.

But this is not that hard. I have not said once that Moshiach ben Yosef is not part of Jewish tradition. I have merely pointed out correctly and irrefutably that the passage you cited had nothing to do with MBY and furthermore MBY is not based upon reconciliation of passages that seem contridictory. In fact I specifically said that the concept is based on Biblical passages that deal with multiple individuals (so I certainly have not denied the concept).

Perhaps you should worry a little less about defending your posistion and examine it. So far you seem not to be even reading what I have written (and my posts are far shorter than yours in this topic.)
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Old 11-21-2002, 01:14 AM
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"I have merely pointed out correctly and irrefutably that the passage you cited had nothing to do with MBY and furthermore MBY is not based upon reconciliation of passages that seem contridictory."

What I would first like to point out is that all you have done so far in this thread is expressed an opinion, not 'irrefutable fact' as you claim. You have made personal statements, but no presentation of any material whatsoever.... so I would not agree that you have 'irrefutably' stated anything.

But moving onward....
"...that the passage you cited had nothing to do with ..."

You are merely picking apart an idividual passage???
Yet in your second post you said:
"And while you did quote sources they did not support your thesis. None of them gave examples of Moshiach ben Yosef being the result of a resolution of two apparently conflicting verses."

Considering that you were contending with all of the sources I quoted, I must answer as such.

However, even the original source did precisely what you deny it to do. It found an apparent contradiction between two verses. The original passage in question is:

==========================================
R. Alexandri said: Rabbi Joshua opposed two verses:
It is written:
And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds
of heaven. (Dan. 7:13)
Whilst it is written: [behold, your king comes to you...] lowly, and riding upon an ass! (Zech. 9:9)
(b.San. 98a)
==============================================

They see a King and they see a servant. These two ideas are conflicting. Many Rabbis have discussed through the centuries why this is so. I have only quoted a few of thier observations. I could use an endless stream of Rabbinic sources.

True, this passage from b. San. 98a merely presents the idea of a conflict in nature, I did not go into addressing whether it (within that Sanhedrien) resolved the issue by creating two Messiahs, one messiah come twice, or two possible outcomes of the coming messiah (your attempted presentation thus far). I was merely using thier findings of conflicting passages to fuel a discussion in what Rabbinical scholars have discussed through the centuries... and I've made that quite clear from the beginning!

Now, I ask you what position am I defending?

That there exists within Judaism the concept of two messiahs, one the son of david the other the son of josef?

Guilty as charged!

I do adhere to the Jewish theology of a dual messiah!

HOW that dual messiah theory is explained was never answered. I only presented the theology in Judaism of two Messiahs... one lowly, and one kingly.

This can be explained in three various scenarios:

1) There are two messiahs.
2) There are two possibilities of one messiah coming, he might come one way or come another way.
3) A single messiah will come twice.

Granted, I have also made remarks and quotes that show support for all three of the above explanations in my Dual Messiah thread.

As for length of posts... that matters little, but rather quality of what's said, proof that is presented, and logic assertained should be the goal of posting.

Hope that you will bring a little of all!
Shalom,
Japheth.
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