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  #31  
Old 09-15-2003, 10:19 PM
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Yes Matt I know Brad, we met the day after 911 happened. I kept in touch with him. He sent me the forum page to check out. Thus here am I.
I think I understand who you believe God to be. You believe Christ is with the Father not of the Father. Do you give God a form? Another question why does Christ refer to a higher power as Father? Do you believe the Father He refers to is not His literal Father, but is Christ not in the flesh? While on the cross Christ's asks His Father why He has left Him alone. Why would He ask His Father that if He is the Father in the flesh?
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  #32  
Old 09-15-2003, 10:21 PM
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We share in His glory, what glory does He have to share with us, but His own?
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  #33  
Old 09-16-2003, 03:40 PM
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Matt,
To me it seems as though you believe God changes. Changes from God the Father, to God the Son to God the Spirit. How is it possible for one to be all three at once? While on earth Christ mentions His Father being in heaven, not that He was or will be, that He is. Christ was on earth at the time not in heaven. So how could He be the Father in Heaven and the Son on earth at once? Also He could not be only a Spirit yet have a body of flesh
and bone. Either He is a Spirit or has a body, they can not be both.

The only way this makes any sense to me is that there is more then one being which make or form the God of the Bible. One which has an immortal body of flesh and bone and one which has a immortal Spirit body. Yet are one. If not God does change, His form at least. From spirit to flesh, from flesh to spirit.
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  #34  
Old 09-16-2003, 08:53 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer
do you give God a form?
Sorry, I'm not sure what you're asking.
Quote:
Another question why does Christ refer to a higher power as Father?
What scripture are you refering to?
Quote:
Do you believe the Father He refers to is not His literal Father, but is Christ not in the flesh?
These are some good questions... No, Messiah is not the Father. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God..." It is the Word which became flesh and made His dwelling among us, yet He is Immanuel, G-d with us.
Quote:
While on the cross Christ's asks His Father why He has left Him alone. Why would He ask His Father that if He is the Father in the flesh?
Well, as I said above, Messiah isn't exactly the Father in the flesh, but that is a great question. Hard to answer... For starters, it's not necessarily the Father who left Him. He cried, "My G-d, My G-d, why have you forsaken me?" Personally, I believe that at that point, His divinity left Him on the cross, leaving just the man, Jesus, to die. It was at that point that He wore all the sin of mankind on His head and paid the price for us, which explains why He was forsaken and died ("the wages of sin is death" Rom. 6:23, and G-d will not dwell in the presence of sin.)
Quote:
How is it possible for one to be all three at once? While on earth Christ mentions His Father being in heaven, not that He was or will be, that He is. Christ was on earth at the time not in heaven. So how could He be the Father in Heaven and the Son on earth at once?
Deuteronomy 4:39 says that YHWH is the G-d of heaven above and of the earth below. Jeremiah 23:23-24 says...
"Am I a G-d near at hand only, says YHWH,
and not a G-d far off?
24 Can a man hide in secret
without my seeing him? says YHWH.
Do I not fill both heaven and earth? says YHWH."

YHWH is an omnipresent G-d. It should not be hard for Him to Speak from Heaven while standing in the Jordan River at the same time.
Quote:
Also He could not be only a Spirit yet have a body of flesh and bone. Either He is a Spirit or has a body, they can not be both.
It is "the Word" (John 1:1) that became flesh, not the Father.

I hope this helps you understand who YHWH, the G-d of Christianity is.

Sincerely,
matt

p.s. You are aware that I don't have the same view of G-d as the church that sponsors this site, I'm assuming...? The church that sponsors this site does not believe in the Trinity. They do not believe that Messiah is G-d, as far as I can tell.
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  #35  
Old 09-17-2003, 04:38 PM
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Matt,
do you give God a form?
I was wondering what kind of being you see God as, does He have a shape or is He just a power of some sort?

Another question why does Christ refer to a higher power as Father?

Many scriptures, mostly the ones where He says If you have seen Him you have seen the Father, and where it states He does not do His will but the will of. Some verses to look at: 1 John 4:14, Matt. 7:21; 10:32; 26:39; Luke 2:49; 23:46; there are many more verses.

"YHWH is an omnipresent G-d. It should not be hard for Him to Speak from
Heaven while standing in the Jordan River at the same time. It is "the
Word" (John 1:1) that became flesh, not the Father."

So God is a ventriloquist then?

I do know your beliefs are not the same as the ones on the site, either are
mine. I find learning about other faiths fascinating.

I hope I answered all your questions.
Jennifer
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  #36  
Old 09-17-2003, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer
Matt,
do you give God a form?
I was wondering what kind of being you see God as, does He have a shape or is He just a power of some sort?
Hello Jennifer, thanks for narrowing that down for me. I wouldn't say G-d has a shape. And as far as power goes, He is the source of all power.
Quote:
Another question why does Christ refer to a higher power as Father?
Psalm 2:1-7
1 Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against YHWH
and against his Anointed One.
3 "Let us break their chains," they say,
"and throw off their fetters."
4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 "I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill."
7 I will proclaim the decree of YHWH:
He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.


Verse 7 was quoted by the writer of Hebrews:
Hebrews 1:5
(speaking of Jesus) For to which of the angels did G-d ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"?
Jesus is the Son of YHWH, yet He is YHWH (John 1:1, 8:58).
Quote:
Many scriptures, mostly the ones where He says If you have seen Him you have seen the Father, and where it states He does not do His will but the will of. Some verses to look at: 1 John 4:14, Matt. 7:21; 10:32; 26:39; Luke 2:49; 23:46; there are many more verses.
I'm not sure what the question is. It kinda looks like part of your sentence got cut off, but then again, maybe it's my brain .
Quote:
"YHWH is an omnipresent G-d. It should not be hard for Him to Speak from
Heaven while standing in the Jordan River at the same time. It is "the
Word" (John 1:1) that became flesh, not the Father."

So God is a ventriloquist then?
I've heard that one too many times. It's kind of offending actually, when coming from someone who's trying to be a wise guy. It seems to me though, that you have a very pleasant spirit, and wouldn't intend to offend anyone, so I'm not going to take it personally this time .
In answer to the question at hand, No, He's not a ventriloquist. YHWH is omnipresent as described in Jeremiah 23, and can be in heaven and on earth at the same time. A ventriloquist, on the other hand is not omnipresent and cannot be in more than one place at a time. He just uses tricks .
Quote:
I do know your beliefs are not the same as the ones on the site, either are
mine. I find learning about other faiths fascinating.
I love talking about this stuff, too.

peace,
matt
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  #37  
Old 09-17-2003, 10:06 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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Jennifer, I have some questions for you, now...

Who is "G-d Most High"?
Who is "Elohim"?

matt
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  #38  
Old 09-18-2003, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew23
Jennifer, I have some questions for you, now...

Who is "G-d Most High"?
Who is "Elohim"?

matt
Tough questions to answer, it's not the answering part that is hard it's the explaining part. I have it in my head and it makes since to me. It is hard to get it passed there. I'll do my best I don't want to butcher it.
It really all depends on the words surrounding the titles, to be certain who it is. We believe that they are not names but titles recieved only because of worthiness. True we refer to God the Father as Elohim and Jesus Christ as Jehovah not because we believe it is thier given name, only to make it easier to distinguish the two in conversation. When either name is mentioned we know who is being mentioned. In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints faith at least. In reality nobody that I am aware of knows their true given name, all we now are the titles they have given to us. That is not exactly how it was explained to me, he taught me, I translated to what I heard.
Jennifer
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  #39  
Old 09-19-2003, 04:09 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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Hi Jennifer,

Who is speaking in this scripture?...
Quote:
Isaiah 42:8
"I am YHWH (Jehovah); that is my name!
I will not give my glory to another
or my praise to idols."
matt
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  #40  
Old 09-19-2003, 04:23 PM
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the LORD Jesus Christ, i see why you picked that verse
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  #41  
Old 09-19-2003, 04:29 PM
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as i read the verses around it though i'm not sure
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  #42  
Old 09-19-2003, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer
as i read the verses around it though i'm not sure
Yes, you are seeing what I see.

All through the OT, you will find that it's "the LORD" (YHWH) who always speaks to us through the prophets who wrote it. A common phrase that I'm sure you've heard hundreds of times is, "thus saith the LORD". My point is, all throughout the OT, it's always about YHWH, His people, and what He has to say to them. He tells the people that He is the only true Elohim. They pray to Him. He is their G-d.

Then we come to the New Testament...
Quote:
Hebrews 1:1-2
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
This tells me that the G-d spoken of by the writer of Hebrews is none other than YHWH. He is the one who spoke through the prophets. The writer of Hebrews was probably Jewish. The G-d of Judaism is and always has been YHWH. He's the G-d to whom both Christians and Jews pray.

When Jesus taught the people to pray to "Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name...", who was He teaching them to pray to, and what is the "name" that Jesus spoke of?

with love,
matt
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  #43  
Old 09-19-2003, 05:42 PM
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It is hard to tell who it is, God speaking through His Son or His Son speaking. Only in time and study will we learn the difference.
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  #44  
Old 09-19-2003, 06:36 PM
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Jennifer,

This is the "stumbling block" that I just couldn't get past when I was presented with the gospel explained to me by my friends, Sister Oviatt and Sister Favero. I really don't believe that YHWH has a father. I believe with all my heart that YHWH is the father, and not another G-d. I can't find anywhere in the bible that says YHWH has a father. But I see places where it says he has (will have) a Son. I see Him inviting someone to sit at His right hand. I see Him anointing His servant (Isaiah 42).

The LDS definition of G-d says:
Quote:
When one speaks of God, it is generally the Father who is referred to; that is, Elohim. All mankind are his children. The personage known as Jehovah in Old Testament times, and who is usually identified in the Old Testament as LORD (in capital letters), is the Son, known as Jesus Christ, and who is also a God... Many of the things that the scripture says were done were actually done by the LORD (Jesus)...
I'm sorry, but I can't go along with that. I believe that YHWH (the Name) is Elohim (the title).

Jennifer, are you familiar with Elijah and the account of the "soaked altar"? If not, check out 1 Kings 18. It's a great testimony to the power of YHWH. Take a close look at verse 39. This is a very important scipture that I want to share with you. Please check it out. Then, if you have an interlinear bible handy, something that will tell what the original Hebrew says, check the phrase, "the LORD, he is the G-d, the LORD, he is the God". Let me know what you find.

I am not typing this message for any reason other than to reach out to you with what I believe to be the truth. I do not intend to offend you in any way. I'm not trying to play an "I'm right and you're wrong" type of game or anything. I've been called an "antimormon" over at LDStalk in the past, because of my insistence on the above issue. That one hurt. I hope you don't see me that way. It's not my intent to prove anyone wrong or anything, it's just my heart's desire to share what I've learned with people whom I believe are serving a false G-d. I care very much about Mormons. It just breaks my heart that people are worshipping and praying to another G-d other than YHWH.

Thing is, I never would have cared much about all this if it weren't for the sister missionaries, who cared for me enough to come knocking on my door. Now, I want to knock back, and with the love of Christ, open my heart...

very sincerely,
your friend matt
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  #45  
Old 09-19-2003, 08:42 PM
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"Jennifer, are you familiar with Elijah and the account of the "soaked altar"? If not, check out 1 Kings 18. It's a great testimony to the power of YHWH. Take a close look at verse 39. This is a very important scipture that I want to share with you. Please check it out. Then, if you have an interlinear bible handy, something that will tell what the original Hebrew says, check the phrase, "the LORD, he is the G-d, the LORD, he is the God". Let me know what you find."

I am familiar with the soaked alter I just read it not to long ago.
I'm not sure what it is you want me to notice.
NIV
1 Kings 18
39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!"
KJV
1 Kings 18
39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

One says he is God the other says he is the God. He is the God of the earth He created it. "The" and "Is" do make a difference.
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