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Old 04-17-2003, 12:04 AM
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Remember the Sabbath . . .

Matthew23
There is fulfillment of the sacrifices and the Feasts- in Yeshua and in His body, the church. There is a "spiritual" way in which believers in Messiah keep the Feasts of YHWH. Just as in the Levitical law there were "types and shadows" of what would come, so there are also "types and shadows" in the Feasts of YHWH. There's no way we can keep the Feasts literally as described in the Torah if we can't even offer the sacrifices we are commanded to offer to go along with the Feasts! I believe though, that the Feasts can be kept in spiritual ways.
Matt,

I would be very interested in your explanation of the "types and shadows" of the Saturday Sabbath. You stated: "There are many ways in which the Feasts have been fulfilled (and also some ways in which they are yet to be fulfilled)." Can you expound on the past and future fulfillments of the Saturday Sabbath?

If you do not observe a Saturday Sabbath but, rather, observe Sunday as your day of worship on a weekly basis, why? What lessons (past and future) does Sunday teach us? In fact, what lessons (past and future) do any of the Pagan Holidays (Holy Days) teach the present-day believer? Why has the modern-day Chr_stian world chosen to replace nearly all of Hashem's Holy Days with those adopted from Paganism?

Peace,
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Old 04-18-2003, 02:00 PM
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Re: Remember the Sabbath . . .

Originally posted by hyssop:
I would be very interested in your explanation of the "types and shadows" of the Saturday Sabbath. You stated: "There are many ways in which the Feasts have been fulfilled (and also some ways in which they are yet to be fulfilled)." Can you expound on the past and future fulfillments of the Saturday Sabbath?
me: Ah! Excellent question! This is something I've often wondered about. I've learned only a few things about it, so I need to study this topic more.

There's no doubt that the weekly Sabbath is/was a "shadow" of what would come (I'm not sure if you're questioning that it is or not)...
Quote:
Colossians 2:16-17
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come...
The weekly Sabbath pointed to the one who would give us true rest---->Messiah! That is, if we "believe" in Him...
Quote:
Hebrews 3:12-4:11
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief. 1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' " 4And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.


Originally posted by hyssop:
If you do not observe a Saturday Sabbath but, rather, observe Sunday as your day of worship on a weekly basis, why? What lessons (past and future) does Sunday teach us? In fact, what lessons (past and future) do any of the Pagan Holidays (Holy Days) teach the present-day believer? Why has the modern-day Chr_stian world chosen to replace nearly all of Hashem's Holy Days with those adopted from Paganism?
me: I do worship on Sunday rather than Saturday. When I first began doing so, I did it because "everyone else did". But why do I continue to worship on Sunday? I'll get to your questions soon. There's a lot to deal with here!

with love,
matt
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Old 04-18-2003, 03:39 PM
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Thumbs up excellent!

By the way, Hyssop- nice work in re-organizing the Holy Days area of the forum.

matt
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Old 04-18-2003, 03:44 PM
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First of all, about Sundays...

Messiah was raised to life on the "first day of the week". Let's talk about that for a bit. Do you agree that He rose on Sunday? I think I remember reading on this web site that you all believe that it was the Sabbath and not "Sunday" .

matt
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Old 04-19-2003, 04:51 AM
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Good Friday and Easter

Matt,

I assume that you've been taught and believe that Y'shua died on Friday (Mark 15:42), was buried at or just before sunset (Luke 23:54), and was raised at or just before sunrise on Sunday morning (John 20:1)?

p.s. I'm glad you like the new Holy Days format. Thanks for the "thumbs up"
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Old 04-19-2003, 09:44 PM
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Hyssop,

It is my understanding that the "Good Friday" tradition is incorrect. Messiah likely died on a Wednesday rather than Friday; whoever decided that Friday was the day didn't realize that there was an "extra Sabbath" that week. This goofed up the truth of Messiah being raised after three days.

I believe that He was raised after sunset on Saturday, which would have actually been the first day of the week- Sunday!

I bought a new computer today. Man, I've got to get used to this keyboard!

matt
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Old 04-19-2003, 10:25 PM
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Matt,

Yes. I, too, believe that "Good Friday" is a myth.

To my knowledge, there is no scriptural support for Y'shua being buried after sunset. Luke 23:53 (KJV) states that Joseph of Arimathaea took Y'shua's body down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in the sepulchre. v54 then states that the day he did all of this was the preparation (Nisan 14), and "the sabbath drew on." The NAS translation states in v54 that "the sabbath was about to begin." Matthew's account in Matthew 27 states that Joseph did all of these things (v57-61) and then in v62 "Now the next day, that followed the day of preparation . . ." Every scriptural indication of which I am aware points to all of Joseph's work being accomplished on the day of preparation, Nisan 14.

Do you agree? If not, on what evidence do you base a burial after sunset?
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Last edited by hyssop; 04-20-2003 at 12:30 AM.
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Old 04-20-2003, 12:09 AM
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I agree that He died, and was buried before sunset. I believe He was in the grave for 3 days: Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. I believe He was there for 3 nights as well: Wednesday night, Thursday night, and Friday night. Once the sun set on Saturday, it was time for Him to come out, because it would have been the "morrow after the Sabbath"...
Quote:
Leviticus 23:10-11
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before YHWH, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Yeshua is the sheaf of firstfuits, who has been accepted for us...
Quote:
1 Corinthians 15:20-23
20 But now is Messiah risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Messiah the firstfruits; afterward they that are Messiah's at his coming.
...and we are the remaining sheaves- to be gathered up on His return.

matt
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Old 04-20-2003, 12:31 AM
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Matt,

If Y'shua was buried before sunset on Wednesday and was raised on Sunday night (after sunset on Saturday), wouldn't that mean that he was raised on the fourth night and not the third day?
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Old 04-20-2003, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hyssop
If Y'shua was buried before sunset on Wednesday and was raised on Sunday night (after sunset on Saturday), wouldn't that mean that he was raised on the fourth night and not the third day?
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I don't know. Do the scriptures say that He rose during the "day" meaning daylight hours specifically? All I know is, He rose on Sunday. If He didn't, then He didn't fulfill the scripture in Leviticus 23 as the Sheaf of Firstruits.

This gets confusing when trying to talk in terms of a "Jewish day", which begins at sundown. Or does it?

matt
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Old 04-20-2003, 02:25 PM
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Today, the modern day (24-hour day) runs from midnight to midnight. So, there is a night portion at the beginning of the day (midnight to dawn), a day portion (dawn to sunset) and another night portion (sunset to midnight). The new day starts at midnight (12:00am).

The Jewish 24-hour day runs from sunset to sunset. So, it starts with the night portion (sunset to sunrise) and ends with the day portion (sunrise to sunset). The new day starts at sunset. Once one gets used to it, it's relatively easy to understand.

If Y'shua was buried some time before sunset on Wednesday and stayed there three days and three nights (72 hours), he would have been resurrected some time before sunset on Saturday. He would have been three days (Thursday, Friday, Saturday) and three nights (Wednesday, Thursday, Friday) in the tomb.
Originally posted by Matthew23
Do the scriptures say that He rose during the "day" meaning daylight hours specifically?
Had he been resurrected after sunset on Saturday, this would have fallen in the fourth 24-hour "day"--the night portion of that Jewish fourth day. There are plenty of Greek scriptures that indicate that Y'shua was resurrected on the third day and not the fourth day (or fourth night). (Luke 24:46; Acts 10:40; I Cor 15:4)

Now, this brings us to your excellent point about the fulfillment of the Sheaf of the Firstfruits. I absolutely agree that Y'shua fulfilled this portion of Leviticus 23; he had to fulfill these scriptures.

If I understand what you are saying, it is: 1) Y'shua must fulfill the Sheaf of the Firstfruits, 2) This fulfillment is accomplished by Y'shua's resurrection, and 3) Since Leviticus commands that the Firstfruits be waved on Sunday, the day following the Sabbath, Y'shua had to be raised on Sunday.

Is this an accurate description of the quandary?
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Old 04-20-2003, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by hyssop
If I understand what you are saying, it is: 1) Y'shua must fulfill the Sheaf of the Firstfruits, 2) This fulfillment is accomplished by Y'shua's resurrection, and 3) Since Leviticus commands that the Firstfruits be waved on Sunday, the day following the Sabbath, Y'shua had to be raised on Sunday.

Is this an accurate description of the quandary?
Yes.
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Old 04-20-2003, 09:28 PM
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Okay, then. Let's take a look at the commandment in Leviticus 23 concerning the firstfruits.
Leviticus 23 KJV
[10] Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: [11] And he shall wave the sheaf before the L_rd, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
What, exactly, has to be done on the morrow after the sabbath? The firstfruits had to be waved before the L_rd. Knowing that Y'shua is the sheaf of the firstfruits (the first to be resurrected unto eternal life), when did he fulfill this requirement of the Torah?
John 20 KJV
[16] Jes_s saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. [17] Jes_s saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my G_d, and your G_d.
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Old 04-20-2003, 10:28 PM
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Read 1 Corinthians 15. Paul speaks about the Resurrection of the dead. It is in this context that he speaks of Messiah as the Firstfruits. Paul's not talking about the ascension of the resurrected.

Also, verse four says that Messiah was to be "raised on the third day according to the Scriptures". I ask you, according to what Scriptures? I say: according to Leviticus 23 and the "Sheaf of Firstfruits".

with love and respect,
matt
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Old 04-20-2003, 11:43 PM
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Matt,

Yes, Paul is speaking of the resurrection from the dead and nothing about Y'shua's "waving." And, yes, Y'shua is the sheaf of the firstfruits--the first resurrected unto eternal life. He became the firstfruits on the third day, as you have quoted from I Cor 15:4. The third day was Saturday; the fourth day was Sunday, the morrow after the sabbath.

Leviticus 23 says nothing about the particular day that the firstfruits were to come into being or when they were supposed to be harvested--it only mentions when they were to be waved before the L_rd. When Y'shua appeared before the Creator after he spoke to Mary, he fulfilled that particular wave sheaf requirement.

Again, a resurrection on the morrow after the Sabbath (as a potential fulfillment of Lev. 23) is a fourth day resurrection. How can that fit with the third day resurrection mentioned in I Cor 15:4?
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