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**Valid Name** · 09-21-2002, 11:10 PM

Books

Greetings Tony,

I believe I speak for the caretakers of this forum when I say, "we have never used one."

We have one who reads and can speak Hebrew, the rest of us are 'Strong's' majors (he he).

I am not sure if we consider ourselves Messianic Jews however. We do follow many of the Laws, however we are small, and just Consider ourselves A Church of G-d.

I am glad however that you have seen into the Old Testement and how it applies today. We were all taught that about the Law, and hopefully, oneday all will Teach the Law.

By the way, the Caretakers of the board will be out of town for about a week starting tommorrow for the Feast. So if we don't respond, you know why.

Sincerely,
Valid Name

**Thummim** · 09-22-2002, 10:11 AM

The fingerprints of guilt tease the truth.

tonyshaw,

...You should have saved yourself some money and just bought a tanakh {JEWish publication society}. You might be led into thinking that these two books in one cover, are two parts of the same book. They are not. The New testement is written as much as 500+ years after the "Old testement". The NT doesn't build upon the name of YHWH. {Davids rock} This name is in 65 of the 66 books of the tanakh. {underneith the word "LORD"} The exception among the tanakhs books is the book of Esther, were the plot is hatched to distroy all JEWs. Esther is also the only book of the Tanakh to be missing a copy among the dead sea scrolls. Perhaps the plot to eliminate the name of YHWH is central to the plot against the JEWish people. Did the Roman Catholic church know that YHWH goes into the name of YaHudaH perfectly, but chose to leave out this information from its own book? {the NT} If so, perhaps this is also a plot against the name of YHWH, to seize prominance away from the JEWish people. The centrality of being JEWish and JEWish ownership of the promises of the tanakh belong to YHWH's name. The Catholic church writes themselves into the texts through the NT. What would the tanakh be without the name of YHWH throughout its pages? Can you see a conspiracy in leaving out the name of YHWH from the NT? Was it deliberate? Didn't the authors of the NT know the name of "YHWH" and its relevance to the JEWish people? In place of using the name of "YHWH", they write that "the name" is revealed to the followers of "Jesus" in Johns seventeenth chapter. This, if so, would put the stain of innocent JEWish blood upon the church. Would christians have dealt as they did, closing their doors to the JEWish people in their many oppressions of them, if it was known to christians that this people also was named "GD --> YHWH" {GD's name taken from their own name of YaHudaH}? Instead christians are taught that "the JEWs killed the son of GD". You know what the outcome of a defiled name is. JEWs are slaughtered by the millions in christian lands, and their property seized. Including the NT in with the Tanakh, between the same covers is an attempt to convince you that "Jesus" is the messiah. If you start out believing this, would you test the validity of "Jesus", even though the tanakh came bound to the NT? Keep an open mind if you love the JEWish people. Which faith among the faiths of this world, have the most innocent JEWish blood upon it? Christianity is guilty 10,000 to one over Islam. Isn't that interesting?

....Michael

**tonyshaw** · 09-22-2002, 08:28 PM

To Valid Name:

I allready have an interlinear Greek-English NT (which includes Strong's #'s under every word in each verse) and would like to eventually get a Hebrew-English Interlinear OT with Strong's #'s as well, but it is price prohibitive - over $100, and VERY BIG!

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To Thummim:

Even though it seems we are of different faiths (I believe Jesus was and is Messiah, and you don't seem to) I do appreciate the time you have spent to reply and for sharing. On many other points you brought up, I agree with you . . .

I do plan on obtaining a tanakh as suggested to me on another board. And I do understand that the OT and NT are 2 different books. Supposedly the OT being the original covenant God made with mankind, and the NT being the new covenant God has made with mankind - new, not in the sense of replacing, but new in the sense of completing. Many scholars better than me argue these from both points of view, and I myself am not up to the level of debating that issue.

I completely agree that scholars of old have tried to rewrite texts of both the OT and the NT to fit what they perceive to be more accurate. In effect, since they did not believe in any form or fashion of God, they had tried to rewrite the texts to diminish Him, or to even write Him away. I specifically am aware of this in the NT where Jesus calls himself God or the text seems to show this, and ancient scholars had revised the texts to diminish this.

And I agree that the Roman Catholic Church, dispite the supposed good they are supposed to have done, have rewritten the Bible to suite their own needs, as have MANY other "churches" have done.

And I further agree that there has been a "villianization" of the Jews by many who have called themselves "christians". In my understanding of the NT, God the Father sacrificed is own son as a sacrifice for all. To say any human group is responsible is, in my opinion, so insanely stupid! And, the NT does say that MANY will call themselves "christians" and even "do good works" but come judgement day, God will look at them and say, "I never knew you" and cast them into hell. Won't they be in for a big surprise!

Further, I believe that God will damn anyone who harms a Jew (by religion or lineage), and God will bless those who help them. As I can best understand the OT, the Jews as a people are held by God as a husband would hold to his wife. They are HIS people. I cannot fathom being the one on the receiving end of God's fury when He sees anyone messing with His beloved.

As best as I can understand the NT, followers of Jesus, who I believe is God in an earthly form, are then God's children.

An unusuall analogy, I admit. The Jewish people are "God's wife", and the "true"-christians (as judged by God, and not by man) are "God's children." Seems like the Jewish people "get thet better end of the deal." But assuming OT and NT are both from God, then I'd be happy just to sit in a corner of heaven with nothing. Just to be in God's presence is more than I deserve!

Just a thought to follow your ending thought, IF, (I emphasis the word IF) IF, Jesus IS God, then what better way for satan to spoil God's plan (which satan seems to love to do) and turn people away from God's plan, what better way than to smear this new name - Christians (aka, Christ-like). (Even the NT admits that the many self-proclaimed christians - AREN"T christians, "His children", in God's eyes.)

I have also read that the earliest "christian" churches were largely jewish in nature (given that Jesus and most of his followers were Jewish). Then, an anti-Jewish attitude swept into the churches, and anything resembling Jewishness was attacked, and the churches were "christianized" as they called it. I think this was the single most horibble and stupid thing ever done within the christian churches. THEY WILL PAY FOR IT, God gaurantees it!!!.

Now, I am trying to put back into my life what the early churches stole away from me - the richness of the Jewish heritage, God's
nation and people. Hence, my studies into these subjects.

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Thank you, Thummim, for your post. My intent was not to argue or debate with you. Simply to share with you my thoughts. And I certainly appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me!

**Thummim** · 09-23-2002, 12:13 PM

Look always with open eyes.

tonyshaw writes,

I have also read that the earliest "christian" churches were largely jewish in nature (given that Jesus and most of his followers were Jewish). Then, an anti-Jewish attitude swept into the churches, and anything resembling Jewishness was attacked, and the churches were "christianized" as they called it. I think this was the single most horibble and stupid thing ever done within the christian churches. THEY WILL PAY FOR IT, God gaurantees it!!!.

...To zero in on the problem, you need to take an old copy of the NT and circle the term {The JEWs} as it occurs in the book of John. This will point out a problem with the NT to you. Remember that John 15: 6 is the other end of christianity. If you want to find a decieved people, look for many believers. It is they who follow the anti-GD who makes war upon the name of YHWH {YaHudaH} In case you haven't noticed, it is the NT that closes the gates of salvation to all JEWs who will not bow to Jesus and make him their king. {Lk. 19: 27} You can't see it, because you are in it. But your heart is very good. Many nazi's didn't realize the evil of their faith. Only when they stepped back and looked at what they believed and were doing, did they finally realize who the bad guys really were. What you give to YaHudaH, you give to GD. Yahudah is his inheritance {Zech. 2: 12} and his name. Don't trust christianity. Let your love of the JEWish people guide you. YHWH did not curse the world, only those who curse his name.

8 And I will encamp about mine house because of the army, because of him that passeth by, and because of him that returneth: and no oppressor shall pass through them any more: for now have I seen with mine eyes. Zech. 9: 8

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11 Wisdom is good with an inheritance: and by it there is profit to them that see the sun.

12 For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it. Eccl. 7: 11, 12

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...Which faith among all the worlds faiths, has been the greatest curse to the JEWish people? Why then try to reform it? There are better options that will yeild more joy.

....Michael

**tonyshaw** · 09-23-2002, 08:55 PM

to michael (thummim):

I am not wise or learned enough to debate you, nor do I wish any dis-respect towards you.

I guess it comes down to faith, in what one believes to be true.

Jesus proclaimed to all that he was the same God of the Jews in an earthly form. This was blasphamey to those who did not believe his claim.

Even today, one either believes Jesus's claim, or one does not believe his claim. There really isn't room for anything in between.

Jesus is even given the claim to being the Messiah, and the rightful heir to the Jewish throne, and to rule the world through the nation of Israel. Perhaps this alone is why so many people and nations intent on world domination have tried to wipe out the Jews because they fear this prophecy of Israel ruling the world one day.

I digress, I am woefully too inadequate to properly and respectfuly debate these issues.

I respect you personally, and I deeply respect God's people, the Jews. I feel this is my limit of discussion. I do appreciate you taking the time to post, but I feel I am quite out of my league here.

Thank you so much for being gracious towards me! I wish for you much joy and many blessings!

**Thummim** · 09-24-2002, 01:10 PM

Left to our own reasoning.

...Oh America, who gives freedom to all to persue their faiths. I am glad that we can believe as we all please. One builds their faith upon the tanakh, and another upon the words of the NT. {etc., etc.} The two needn't say the same thing. The debate is whether or not they do. I'm convinced that the one should not wear the cover of the other. But the argument should not separate friends. I like you Tony, and have enjoyed our posts. I'm not a master at this craft, neither need you be convinced of anything that I post without first testing me. If you ever have a question for me, I'll try to answer it, though I cannot always guarantee my answer. To tell you the truth, even the tanakh has been proven to have some of its information {and history} wrong. History has proven its authors to be men just as we are, given to their own faiths, but not necessairily justifiably so. Baruch Hashem,

....Michael

**tonyshaw** · 09-24-2002, 08:34 PM

Todah Rabbah Michael,

I too have enjoyed our time together on these boards.

I look forward to future times - may we always meet and leave in peace!

**Glori** · 10-01-2002, 10:01 AM

Tonyshaw,

To go back to your original question, The best thing you can do is purchase an Interlinear Bible and check the translations for yourself. The early versions focused on trying to give an accurate translation, all of the latter versions incorporate the understanding of the translator(s) into it. I tell you this truth, there is one G-d, it is the G-d of Israel! He is wise beyond all human understanding, and knew good and well when the printing press would be invented, and therefore watched over the word he gave through chosen men to keep it safe until a time and place of freedom to endulge it to the hearts content. If you chose the Jewish scriptures or the whole Bible, don't read with the expectation of being able to understand it right off. The Mind of G-d is so much higher than ours that we must first gain his approval by familiarizing ourselves with his words, then wisdom is by granting (Job 32.8).

Grace and peace to you

Glori

**tonyshaw** · 10-01-2002, 12:28 PM

To Glori,

I all ready have an interlinear NT, and a complete OT/NT with strong's reference #'s to the original dictionaries is over $150.00.

I plan on getting it when I can save up that much.

I am still getting the Messianic Jewish Bible to help me "link" the OT and NT together.

You are correct, no matter how much we try, we can never understand things on G-d's level.

**Glori** · 10-02-2002, 05:30 PM

Tonyshaw,

I will add then that I purchased the Jewish Bible by David Stern, and I found that he did incorporate his own understadning into his translation. As far as us not being able to understand G-d, you can bet that when G-d wants us to understand, we will! That is why 2 Tim.2.15 says "study to show yourselves approved of G-d--".

I would suggest familiarity with the whole Bible, that is what developes a collective memory. A collective memory is what links the "rightfully divided word of truth" into 1 John 2.27 "and ye need not that any man teach you".

Glori

**simchat_torah** · 11-16-2002, 05:19 AM

Personally I use two different versions. I use the "Orthodox Brit Chadasha" put out by the Artists for Israel (i think their website is www.afii.org I'll check and get back with ya'all) and I also use "Hebrew Roots New Testament" by Dr. James Trimm.... both are very enlightening to the original intent and language.

Shalom!
Japheth.

**simchat_torah** · 11-16-2002, 05:37 AM

Here's the site for the artists for Israel text:

http://www.afii.org/ojbc.txt

I know I actually bought the book online somewhere, but don't remember where...
But at the site listed above, you can read it online or print it off for free.

However, the HRV (hebrew roots version) you have to buy.
it's at:

Error | Drupal

http://www.nazarene.net/hrv/index.htm

and you can purchase it all over the net.

Shalom Mishpochah!
Japheth.

**tonyshaw** · 11-16-2002, 07:22 PM

<b>Thank You simchat_torah!</b>

I have copied both links! Many thanks!

I have met with discouragement. The Bible and commentary that I had ordered with Amazon.com was canceled. They canceled my order because, they say, it was no longer available.

I do not know, now, where to go. Amazon was supposedly THE place to go.

Mabey I will try seeing if a local book store can order it for me.

Unfortunately, it took Amazon all this time to tell me this, and I have to wait almost 2 more months before I ever see my money again.

Needless to say, I won't be trying them again.

I know when I'm on the right spiritual path, whenever satan tries to put discouagement directly in the path. So, I'm overjoyed that I am making satan nervous. I can't wait to travel the path!

________________
Thanks again!

If anyone else has any ideas, links, sites, etc., Please post them here for me, and thanks in advance the taking the time to do so. It is appreciated!!

Love of Messiah our wellspring of life! - Tony

**simchat_torah** · 11-17-2002, 12:37 PM

I will make note that the AFII version of the Brit Chadasha uses many Hebrewisms. However, it does have a full index of any Hebrewism it does use.

The Hebrew Roots Version is very simple and straightforward in it's language. It doesn't have very many, and the ones it does use are quite common, with the exception of nefesh (meaning soul or spirit).

One of the best that I had ever seen was on a website that currently is not up and running. Luckily, I printed off the entire manuscript before the website went down, and I haven't seen it for over a year now.... too bad. The website was www.parsimony.org but don't bother going, it's not up, you'll just get a dead link. However, I might try someday to contact the individual who ran the site as I have heard they can produce a copy of thier translation and ship it based merely on shipping charges.

David Stern's translation is an ok beginning point. However, even he admits himself that he rarely varied from traditional translation, even if in error, simply to remain in continuity with the majority. He has only varied his translation on a few minor points.

Anyway, no problem Tony. As other translations come available, after I've reviewed them somewhat, I'll be posting them here in this thread.

Shalom mishpochah,
Japheth.

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