Introduction.

[simchat_torah]

"When you tell a rabbi that you worship "Jesus", you have told him that you are a christian. That is what Hyssop is. That is what simchat_torah is."

please do not assume.

Your assumptions make you to be a fool. You do not know what I "worship." I have made it quite clear what I believe, and if the only way you can win an argument is by placing words in my mouth, then so be it. More power to you... but it's still a lie.

Now, if you claim that:
"Judiasm is not about worshipping "Jesus". Lets not confuse christianity with "Judiasm""

We have two problems.
1) You have insisted on this "worship" thing, that has yet to be addressed. I will address it fully later, but you have chosen to make it up, insisting this is what I do. Plain and simple, no. There, I have spoken for myself, without you putting your words in my mouth.
2) If you think merely believing Y'shua is Moshiach (to whatever extent, great or small) denies you of being Jewish, then you are quite wrong. Go to:

http://www.tzaddikim.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=64

Just because there were a group of Jews that followed BarKochba as the Messiah did not disqualify them from being Jews. Just because there were/are Jews who follow Lubavitch as Messiah does not disqualify them from being Jews. Nor does it invalidate their theology from being Jewish... thus the same applies to those who happen to believe Y'shua fulfilled the role of Moshiach (to whichever extent you believe such) disqualifies them from either being Jewish or having Jewish theology.

If you want to debate that topic, I would suggest going to that thread.

Now, as far as racial lines... Did not HaShem promise Avraham that his "seed" would be blessed?

See my post above with the two issues being addressed.

You still skirt the issue.

Well, I suppose you still continue to not act honorable as Hyssop and others. No, you have now degraded yourself to putting words in my mouth (not to mention doctrine).

I thought you had already stooped your lowest... obviously I was wrong.

-Japheth.

[Thummim]

The great JEWish oppresions have happened in among x-tians, why?

...Simchat_torah, this is an extreme minority of JEWish opinion. Claiming a belief in {"Jesus", or Yeshua} as messiah will likely terminate your membership from the majority of places of JEWish worship. There is an extreme {the christians vs the JEWs} mentality among JEWs. Are you claiming to have the medicine to change this? If so, look out for rocks.

...I can see you making this argument with Rabbi Glickman. He would likely ask you to make up your mind as to your faith. He would give you the phonebook and tell you that there are many places to worship "Jesus" at, within the book. There is only one temple serving all of Tacoma and "Jesus" isn't worshiped as the messiah here. And you want to change that?

....Michael

[simchat_torah]

#1) The people quoted in that thread ... Dr. Fluesser, Dennis Prager, and other such Rabbis and scholars ... are by NO MEANS at all in the minority. They are major figures in Judaism today, and are quite influential in the scholarly world as well. No one who I quoted was a random person, or one in the minority of Judaism, but rather are well accepted scholars across the board, and are viewed as such. Dennis Prager is the lead columnist in the largest Jewish magazine in print today. Dr. Fluesser is one of the leading schoalrs in Judaism and teaches at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. I could go on and on...

#2) I ask that you now stop assuming, and placing words in my mouth for the last time... I never said I "worship" the Messiah.
period.

Yes, I view Y'shua as fulfilling various roles as Moshiach ben Yosef to the community of the Diaspora, and this is an accepted view within Judaism.

Would you like to talk about your view of the Jewish race not being in existence? How do you think that is accepted?
HA! Are you kidding me????

[simchat_torah]

With the permission of Thummim, I would like to petition the administrators to delete this thread.... unless someone feels there is something to be gained from it staying.

I feel as though my gentleness has not been expressed in an uplifting way. I also feel that Thummim's arguments are not beneficial to the community, as well as my rebuttal. My rebuttal is more than likely no different than anyone else on this board (with the exception of Thummim) in that I believe that when HaShem said there would be a blessing upon Abraham's seed, that he wasn't kidding...

Thummim,
I would point out that no one here has conceded to your arguments. It seems that this continuation is nothing more than a waste of server space, and possibly an offense to onlookers. No one here is being convinced of your personal theology concerning the non-racial Israelite theory. No offense, it's just not necessarily beneficial.

So, unless anyone here prefers the thread to stay (originally it was merely me just saying hi anyway) for a specific reason, then I would petition the admins to remove it, with Thummim's permission of course.

Though what I have expressed is not wrong, nor do I believe my position to be incorrect, I just want to keep this place in a spirit of peace as it was before this particular thread came along.

Thummim, if you honestly would like to continue this discussion (though I tire of it) I will join you in your thread... possibly later this week.

Shalom,
Japheth.

p.s. If I am mistaken, and there spirit of peace is maintained through this thread, and I'm merely being doubtful, please let me know and keep the thread alive... otherwise, thanks for letting me express my pov.

[Thummim]

Names and genes?

...Simchat_torah, one can have posterity {seed} and it hold few racial qualities. It is only in the generations that can be proven genetically significant, {with an individual or population} that we can call it "race". How much inter-racial activity makes the genetic makeup of a people insignificant? One can look at the faces of JEWs and see that genetic makeup has left the domain of the decendants of Ur of the Chaldees. {the area of Babylon and birthland of Abraham} We could use mathamatics and {racial} studies to show us the effects of intermariage on a population. I can chase down such a study on the internet. There is one concerning where most genes of {Cohen'im} show up in the greatest concentration, in present populations. It is current faith of almost all JEWish organizations that the JEWish people are not a "race" of people. Your perpetuating a myth. Since you have decided to drop out of the conversation, I too will bow out. But I ask Hyssop not to delete the posts on the subject. Antisemites believe firmly in a JEWish "race". That is why I teach that there isn't one. JEWs are targeted as a race and by name {such as JEW}, and the names thought to be JEWish. We had a case in Seattle where a family was killed because their attacker thought them JEWish. They had a name with "gold" in it. They wern't JEWish at all. But their name became their liability.

...The third reich believed firmly in a JEWish blood "race" and tried to exterminate it. I defend JEWs on both points. {race and name} I define it as likely, that the letters Y,H,V,H used to represent the name of GD, likely is taken from the letters as they appear in the name of YaHudaH. While the idea of a people bearing the name of their Eloheem is not the basis for any other faith, arguments for this conclusion for the faith expressed in the tanakh, are easy to make. It even says so literaly in several places in the writing of the authors of the tanakh. {We, I, my people, etc. "who bear my name"}

...If one millionth of the genetic makeup of the JEWish people were to parallel the genes of Abraham, that would be very significant. But as to now, it is hard to identify even a few such genes to do tests by. That is why the Cohen'im are used. JEWs with names like Cohen, Levine and Halevi etc. are tested for genes that are significantly repeted between people that bear these names. Genes are identified and labeled as being likely candidates for testing the population. The hightest concentration of these genes were found in an African tribe. The school site that I posted will allow people to compare JEWish children with their own children, and draw conclusions of their own as to the racial makeup of the JEWish people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2002/07/14/bools14.xml

....Michael

[simchat_torah]

Thummim,

I did not choose to bow out of the argument, but rather I was choosing to go a higher path.... to let peace prevail. No, you would rather continue in your ranting.

fine.

Point #1) "Antisemites believe firmly in a JEWish "race". That is why I teach that there isn't one."

Merely because one person or group or sect of theology MISUSE that truth does not nullify the truth at hand. For example, there exists a truth in the idea of nuclear power. This nuclear power can be used in a beneficial way (to create power to supply cities and nations) or it can be used in a destructive way (such as the atom bomb). However, simply because this truth of nuclear power can be used in a destructive manner does not negate the existence of that truth. Nuclear power still exists even if it is used negatively.
Thus the same is true of the Jewish race. Merely because of it's negative use by other people does not negate the truth that a Jewish race exists. Simply because there does exist a Jewish race does not neccesitate antisemitism. Rather, antisemitism exists because G-d has specifically blessed the Jewish people, and because of this blessing there exists jealously among the nations.

Your logic is flawed. You have built up an argument on a false presupposition... that it is antisemitic to believe the Jewish people are a race.

You have yet to as well address the two issues I previously brought up. You continue to avoid them like the plague.

point #2) I have read your article, however, I too can come up with internet documents and other forms of media that support the opposite position (that there does in fact exist a Jewish race). In fact, ABC News recently aired a program concerning a tribe in Northern Africa that claimed to be decended from the Cohanim that fled the Temple during it's destruction circa 70 c.e.
Every male in that particular tribe had inherited the genetic code that consists of being a Cohanim. There has been talk circulating that these men may possibly be set up along with the new structured temple sect when the 3rd temple is built (the plans are very close).
There existed flaws in the article you presented as well. Granted, only half of the men exhibited the genetic code that claimed to be of Cohen descent, yet what people are fogetting is that in order for HALF a population to exhibit a genetical structure of similar descent (supposedly from Aaron in this case) the odds are astronomically high!!! It MORE OVER proves their claims!
True, genetically, the Jews have assimilated into various cultures and racial groups. Yet there remains a genetical structure that has been constant. Genetically, though there has been mixture a Jew can easily be identified through their genes.


point #3) You seem to ignore the fact that Abraham was given a blessing upon his LITERAL PHYSICAL seed. This seems to be an ignored fact by you. I grant you the idea that a Proselyte (in the second generation) is to be viewed as Jewish. This is given.
Yet you first have not been a proselyte, and second are not even second generation proselyte, so why continue to refer to yourself as Jewish??? (this is of course ignoring the blatant unjewish theology)

Conversion is required for one to become adopted into the Jewish bloodlines... ask Hyssop.
It's not merely a thought, "Hey, I'm Jewish because I want to be... end of story." Sorry, doesn't work that way.

One may join in the faith of a Jew... and as you have ever so clearly pointed out... this is a STRANGER in the land. Strangers who fear Elohim are to be respected. Yet, the stranger remains a stranger until conversion. These strangers who worship YHVH are referred to as a "G-d Fearer".

Much more to say, but this should suffice for now.

Shalom,
Japheth.

[Thummim]

Pound for pound, my JEWishness outweighs yours!

...Japheth writes;

point #3) You seem to ignore the fact that Abraham was given a blessing upon his LITERAL PHYSICAL seed.

...The JEWish people are not a race of people. Confining the seed of Abraham is mathatically impossible. If we except this argument that all of the seed of Judah is JEWish, than anyone who had a JEWish gene in him or her, would be JEWish. We cannot trace these genes for lacking a definable sample of genetic culture. How many {JEWish} genes shall a man have before we call him JEWish? Do you really believe that the genetic content of your body is greater than mine? I can guarantee that it isn't so, simply because I outweigh you. Your racial arguments are stupid. When seed is mentioned, it is refering to the posterity of an individual. It does not refer to a genetically defined race of people.

...I chose only one sample to site on genetic diversity because I thought that would be enough. I could have as well left 10,000 such references if I had wanted to do the work. Your JEWish race doesn't exist. There is not even a hebrew word for "race" that I can find. When one is allowed to mix his genes with Ethopians, Egyptians, and Canaanites, "Race" flies out the window. It is not JEWish faith that the JEWish people are a "race" of people. This is the belief of antisemites who will not except the truth.

...Michael

[simchat_torah]

Your entire post above relies upon this:
"The JEWish people are not a race of people....."

That, is what we call an assumption in logical philosophy. You can not imply your conclusion to the proofs... no the proofs must provide substanance for the conclusion to stand, not the other way around.

"Confining the seed of Abraham is mathatically impossible."

Why? Because you don't bother to count?
Is not the African American community the same? I have yet to find one single African American who is of pure African descent, who does not have some other blood mixed in. Yet, it remains quite obvious that the Black community is a race.

The same applies to the Jewish race.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

"...I chose only one sample to site on genetic diversity because I thought that would be enough. I could have as well left 10,000 such references if I had wanted to do the work."

As well, I could also use an endless array of websites. Yet, I could also argue to each and every individual website you quote from.... the number is meaningless, the quality is what is important.

Finally, as for your antisemetic allegations, I require you to address what I wrote in my last post before I continue to address your nonsensical charges.

Japheth.

[Thummim]

Do you know what an antisemite is?

...You have to be one of the most uninformed people to call me an antisemite. What you are is a racist. If I were an antisemite, why wouldn't I say so? Antisemites always state their beliefs openly.

http://www.messianic-racism.mcmail.com/mr/rac/racist.htm

....Michael

[simchat_torah]

An antisemite is one who is against the jewish race. Nothing in antisemitism relies upon faith, but rather race. Since your agenda is to destroy the Jewish race, through making it to mean absolutely nothing, more than that to make it not exist, you are an antisemite. Now stop calling me a racist, I love the Jewish people, in fact, I am one.

You make the claim of me being a racist like a child, children just mindlessly repeat something back just because it was flaunted in their own fact.... i.e. .. "no I'm not! you are!"

childish.

I am no racist.

period.

[simchat_torah]

Thummim, you have accused me of racism, of being a racist. Let's explore that idea using the dictionary.

==============================================
race Pronunciation Key (rs)
n.
A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
A genealogical line; a lineage.
Humans considered as a group.
A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.


Jew Pronunciation Key (j)
n.
A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism.
A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture.


an·ti-Sem·i·tism (nt-sm-tzm, nt-)
n.
Hostility toward or prejudice against Jews or Judaism.
Racial discrimination against Jews


an·ti-Sem·ite (nt-smt, nt-)
n.
One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews


rac·ism Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race


jew: the name derived from the patriarch Judah, at first given to one belonging to the tribe of Judah or to the separate kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 16:6; 25:25; Jer. 32:12; 38:19; 40:11; 41:3), in contradistinction from those belonging to the kingdom of the ten tribes, who were called Israelites. During the Captivity, and after the Restoration, the name, however, was extended to all the Hebrew nation without distinction (Esther 3:6, 10; Dan. 3:8, 12; Ezra 4:12; 5:1, 5). Originally this people were called Hebrews (Gen. 39:14; 40:15; Ex. 2:7; 3:18; 5:3; 1 Sam. 4:6, 9, etc.), but after the Exile this name fell into disuse. But Paul was styled a Hebrew (2 Cor. 11:22; Phil. 3:5). The history of the Jewish nation is interwoven with the history of Palestine and with the narratives of the lives of their rulers and chief men. They are now [1897] dispersed over all lands, and to this day remain a separate people, "without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image [R.V. 'pillar,' marg. 'obelisk'], and without an ephod, and without teraphim" (Hos. 3:4). Till about the beginning of the present century [1800] they were everywhere greatly oppressed, and often cruelly persecuted; but now their condition is greatly improved, and they are admitted in most European countries to all the rights of free citizens. In 1860 the "Jewish disabilities" were removed, and they were admitted to a seat in the British Parliament. Their number in all is estimated at about six millions, about four millions being in Europe. There are three names used in the New Testament to designate this people, (1.) Jews, as regards their nationality, to distinguish them from Gentiles. (2.) Hebrews, with regard to their language and education, to distinguish them from Hellenists, i.e., Jews who spoke the Greek language. (3.) Israelites, as respects their sacred privileges as the chosen people of God. "To other races we owe the splendid inheritance of modern civilization and secular culture; but the religious education of mankind has been the gift of the Jew alone."


==============================================

Now... am I a racist?
No. I love the Jewish people, culture, race, religion, ect.
In fact, I am a Jew according to race, religion, culture, ect.

Your remarks are ridiculous, inflamatory, insidious, ridiculous, childish, immature, uninformed, and by far and away out of line.

period.

[Thummim]

The least significant genes are the ones that are furthest away.

...Why did you call me an antisemite? Can I guess that you wanted a certain reaction from me? A racist is at first one who believes in racial divisions. White race, black race, Chinese race, Indian race, Mayan race Aboriginal race, JEWish race, etc. With a little study of genetics, it becomes obvious what is wrong with this idea. Supposing that we begin a genetic study examing the offspring of two men and two women. Pair 1 {Abraham and Sarah} give birth to a son. {Isaac} Pair two give birth to a daughter. {Rebekah} The two offspring then give birth to twins themselves. {Esau and Jacob} Now who's the progenitor of these twin sons? Is it {Abraham and Sarah's} line to claim or is it{Rebekah's parents} line to claim? Rebekah and her parents are from outside the seed of Abraham, and yet they contribute as much to the genetics of Jacob and Esau. Jacob is Israel! Now if we add another generation to this, the genetic makeup of Abraham is less of a basis for claiming "this seed", then is the genetic makeup of the current fathers of the mothers of all of Jacobs sons. If we home in on Judah's seed, excluding Shelah, Judahs sons are the children of Er. So Er would be the father of Israel's line by law? {if the mother establishes paternity}, thus making the seed of Judah all Canaanites. (Er's mother is a Cannanite) --> {Zech. 14:21?} On the other hand, it is Judah who fathers these children that make up most of the storyline in the tanakh. In any case, the father of Rebekah would have as much right to call the line of Israel his, as would Er, as would Abraham. Now whose seed is it? Whose racial epitaph shall we write? Understand that more and more genetic material is always coming into the line of Israel from the outside, unless you are calling the children of Israel, inbred. Abraham's genetic contribution is always being diluted. When a decendant of Ham marries a decendant of Shem, who claims the racial epitaph? We will run into this senario more often than not in following a bloodline. What we find is that race exists in name only. In genetics, it does not. There are as many claiments to a bloodline, as there are contributers. Those nearest contribute the most. That would be a claim made by genetic diversity upon the line, that would exceed anything that an individual as far removed as Abraham, can claim as an epitaph. {his race} That would also give many names to apply to these racial epitaphs, if that is the way you choose to go. Abraham has less to do with this line of people, than do all who follow him.

...By and large, the JEWish people claim to be of no individual race. Finding JEWs who believe like you, in a JEWish race, is very hard. I can only imagine what else such a person would believe in. Please post me some names of those who are JEWish and believe in a JEWish race. By the way, what word in the hebrew language do you use to substantiate your concept of "JEWish race"?

....Michael

[simchat_torah]

Tell you what Thummim,
I have asked multiple questions that you have yet to address. Until you address them, I will not continue to answer new questions of yours.

It is difficult to have a discussion with someone when they ignore everything one presents, and continues to bring up new topics demanding their topics be addressed. So, until you answer my previous questions, I don't think I care to continue in this debate.

Shalom,
Japheth.

[Thummim]

There is no JEWish "race"!

...New topics? I'm still on the subject of a mythical "JEWish race".

...For those who want to know the truth about the myth of a JEWish "race" of people, please use your telephone book and look up any JEWish place of worship near you, and call up the rabbi and ask him about it. You needn't except either of our words on this topic. The concept of a JEWish race fills the minds of antisemites. But if there were a "race" of JEWs, why would Abraham {*Shem*} father children by an Egyptian woman {*Ham*- Gen. 16: 1} and Moses {the lawgiver} marry an Ethiopian woman? {*Ham*- Nu. 12: 1} Why did Judah marry a Canaanite? {*Ham* - Gen. 38: 2} These are not things that racist people, trying to maintain racial purity, would do.

....Michael