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Shalom Mishpochah,
What I am about to present to you is taken from a dear friend of mine. He posted this in another discussion board, one that I'm sure no one here has been too...
However, I will leave his two posts untainted, then present what I replied with... and there is still so much more to be discussed on this issue....
Without furhter adue, here it is:
(p.s. His name is Mikha'el, and He's a rabbi in Alaska who believes in Y'shua... I will also point out he previously was involved as a Rabbi in a Hassidic congregation in California, and now is the Rabbi of a conservative group in Alaska)
Post #1
=============================================
What was Yeshua's Sacrifice?
Shalom everyone,
I'm writing this because I've been toiling over some different ideas and problems lately and I'd likd as much feedback as I can get. Please be patient as I'm sure it will be long. I feel I need to be as exhaustive as I can for anyone else to understand where I'm coming from.
Sometime ago, I set out to do a study on why Yeshua was the Messiah. Taking a look at all the prophesies concerning Him. Along the way, I came into a few difficulties and sought out some help in that area. I came to a few new conclusions as well, and this weekend I spent some time praying and think I've finally got the salvation thing worked out.
The reason I picked this particular forum to voice this opinion was because we already stand together in the understanding that a Jew who is Torah observant and love's HaShem with his whole heart, soul and mind does not need to accept Messiah in order to be saved.
In the book of Hebrews Shaul talks about how Yeshua was our Kapparah for that great Yom Kippur.
I'll begin with this: I struggled with all these Christians that go around talking about "Jesus died for my sins, and is in my heart". The problem I have is, why? So I searched out the prophesies that relate to Moshiach ben Yosef. They all speak of Israel as a whole, not the individual. He was going to come to bear the iniquities of Israel, not Joe Shmo. The second problem I had was a question the Rabbi's have posed. A sin sacrifice is always done for the past sin, not the one you're about to commit. So how can Yeshua's sacrifice be valid if it's paying for everyone's sin past, present and future?
As many know, Israel was divided into two nations after Solomon's death. Northern Israel and Judah. In Yirmeyahu 3 we read how HaShem divorced Israel / Ephraim. Paul then talks about in Romans how the woman who is divorced by her husband and runs off to another, cannot remarry the first husband (this is also found in Deut 24), but if the first husband dies, then she is set free from that which was binding her to him and she is no longer commiting adultery.
Idolatry was one of the things that HaShem hated the most, and here was one of His brides commiting idolatry and in Hoshea we're told that He was going to call them not His people and then His people again. (For those of you who are wondering, this is not a two house teaching, I'm not talking about two house as many teach it today, just bear with me). So Hoshea warns us that Northern Israel would become not his people and then we see Yirmeyahu tell us when that happened.
But Moshiach ben Yosef was to come and die for the transgressions of the people! We're not really told about how Northern Israel was to become His people again, we're only told they will.
So, I've come to a certain conclusion. Messiah came in the name of the Father. Whether you belive in the virgin birth or not, the prophecies say that Moshiach will inherit the name of HaShem. So in essense, by inheriting the name of HaShem, his death was the same as though HaShem, the first husband, had died. Now, Israel was freed from the "title" of whore. She was able to come back to HaShem and no longer be in an adulterous affair.
So what was Yeshua's sacrifice? Was it a pay in advance sacrifice? I'd say that no, it is not, on one hand. It was done so that Israel might be able to come back. Remember that a woman cannot come back to her first husband, but if he dies she is released, and upon his ressurection, she can then marry him again. So, Messiah died for the transgressions of the forefathers, that caused the descendants non-access to their G-d. How can I say then that this is a pay it forward situation? Today, those that were part of Israel and have walked away from HaShem can have that access to him through Messiah. But what about the sins I commit today? As we've seen in times when there was no Temple in the TaNaKh, we get salvation from Teshuvah. When we repent, and turn our eyes towards HaShem, we are then forgiven our sins.
What of Judah though? Judah was never divorced. And for those who have kept the lifestyle of Torah wiht love for G-d and not just out of habit, there is salvation. How does this line up with what we're taught in the New Testament? In Matt. 9:12-13 Yeshua says that the well are not in need of a doctor, but only the sick. He had not come for the righteous but for the sinners. This implies that there are those who are righteous. We also see in Mark 1:2-5 that Yochanan was immersing in the Immersion of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. What? How could he do that, Yeshua hadn't even died yet. Some might argue that his was before the death of Messiah and it was all looking forward to Messiah. Ok, then what they're saying is that, yes, infact, G-d does indeed change. Another interesting passage is in John 4:22. Yeshua is talking with the woman at the well and said to her that they didn't know who they worshipped, but the Jews knew their G-d. Then he says, "You see, salvation is From the Jews". He did not say "to the Jews". Why didn't he say that salvation came from Him?
Another misconception is when Christians think that Yehsua died so that they could be saved. Oy! Can anyone name me a verse in the TaNaKh where salvation was not offered to the Gentiles that wanted to join HaShem? Of course not. There has always been an invitation and a plan for the salvation of anyone who wanted to join HaShem. It wasn't only Hebrews at the foot of Sinai, but they were all Israel. There were Egyptians there as well as descendants of Jacob. They all received the Torah together.
In short, what I've come to understand is this:
Yeshua came a died so that the sins of our forfathers that rejected HaShem and followed after idols could be done away with, once and for all. By this, our descendants are allowed access to HaShem and are given the opportunity to be saved. It is a great thing that he's done. But once we've returned, or made teshuvah, we must follow Torah and it is he that endures to the end that shall be saved. A little prayer when you're twenty doesn't give you assurance of "Salvation". It is walking daily with HaShem until the end that assures us a part in the Olam HaBa. As it is said, he that lives his life Holy and in his last days curses HaShem will have no part in the Olam HaBa, yet he who has lived wickedly, if he makes teshuvah at the end of his days, it will all be accounted righteousness to him.
I'd appreciate any comments and corrections in my reasoning. Thanks for hearing me out. I'm still not sure that I've made my view understood, I'm not sure how to articulate this subject well.
Be well,
Mikha'el
============================================
What I am about to present to you is taken from a dear friend of mine. He posted this in another discussion board, one that I'm sure no one here has been too...
However, I will leave his two posts untainted, then present what I replied with... and there is still so much more to be discussed on this issue....
Without furhter adue, here it is:
(p.s. His name is Mikha'el, and He's a rabbi in Alaska who believes in Y'shua... I will also point out he previously was involved as a Rabbi in a Hassidic congregation in California, and now is the Rabbi of a conservative group in Alaska)
Post #1
=============================================
What was Yeshua's Sacrifice?
Shalom everyone,
I'm writing this because I've been toiling over some different ideas and problems lately and I'd likd as much feedback as I can get. Please be patient as I'm sure it will be long. I feel I need to be as exhaustive as I can for anyone else to understand where I'm coming from.
Sometime ago, I set out to do a study on why Yeshua was the Messiah. Taking a look at all the prophesies concerning Him. Along the way, I came into a few difficulties and sought out some help in that area. I came to a few new conclusions as well, and this weekend I spent some time praying and think I've finally got the salvation thing worked out.
The reason I picked this particular forum to voice this opinion was because we already stand together in the understanding that a Jew who is Torah observant and love's HaShem with his whole heart, soul and mind does not need to accept Messiah in order to be saved.
In the book of Hebrews Shaul talks about how Yeshua was our Kapparah for that great Yom Kippur.
I'll begin with this: I struggled with all these Christians that go around talking about "Jesus died for my sins, and is in my heart". The problem I have is, why? So I searched out the prophesies that relate to Moshiach ben Yosef. They all speak of Israel as a whole, not the individual. He was going to come to bear the iniquities of Israel, not Joe Shmo. The second problem I had was a question the Rabbi's have posed. A sin sacrifice is always done for the past sin, not the one you're about to commit. So how can Yeshua's sacrifice be valid if it's paying for everyone's sin past, present and future?
As many know, Israel was divided into two nations after Solomon's death. Northern Israel and Judah. In Yirmeyahu 3 we read how HaShem divorced Israel / Ephraim. Paul then talks about in Romans how the woman who is divorced by her husband and runs off to another, cannot remarry the first husband (this is also found in Deut 24), but if the first husband dies, then she is set free from that which was binding her to him and she is no longer commiting adultery.
Idolatry was one of the things that HaShem hated the most, and here was one of His brides commiting idolatry and in Hoshea we're told that He was going to call them not His people and then His people again. (For those of you who are wondering, this is not a two house teaching, I'm not talking about two house as many teach it today, just bear with me). So Hoshea warns us that Northern Israel would become not his people and then we see Yirmeyahu tell us when that happened.
But Moshiach ben Yosef was to come and die for the transgressions of the people! We're not really told about how Northern Israel was to become His people again, we're only told they will.
So, I've come to a certain conclusion. Messiah came in the name of the Father. Whether you belive in the virgin birth or not, the prophecies say that Moshiach will inherit the name of HaShem. So in essense, by inheriting the name of HaShem, his death was the same as though HaShem, the first husband, had died. Now, Israel was freed from the "title" of whore. She was able to come back to HaShem and no longer be in an adulterous affair.
So what was Yeshua's sacrifice? Was it a pay in advance sacrifice? I'd say that no, it is not, on one hand. It was done so that Israel might be able to come back. Remember that a woman cannot come back to her first husband, but if he dies she is released, and upon his ressurection, she can then marry him again. So, Messiah died for the transgressions of the forefathers, that caused the descendants non-access to their G-d. How can I say then that this is a pay it forward situation? Today, those that were part of Israel and have walked away from HaShem can have that access to him through Messiah. But what about the sins I commit today? As we've seen in times when there was no Temple in the TaNaKh, we get salvation from Teshuvah. When we repent, and turn our eyes towards HaShem, we are then forgiven our sins.
What of Judah though? Judah was never divorced. And for those who have kept the lifestyle of Torah wiht love for G-d and not just out of habit, there is salvation. How does this line up with what we're taught in the New Testament? In Matt. 9:12-13 Yeshua says that the well are not in need of a doctor, but only the sick. He had not come for the righteous but for the sinners. This implies that there are those who are righteous. We also see in Mark 1:2-5 that Yochanan was immersing in the Immersion of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. What? How could he do that, Yeshua hadn't even died yet. Some might argue that his was before the death of Messiah and it was all looking forward to Messiah. Ok, then what they're saying is that, yes, infact, G-d does indeed change. Another interesting passage is in John 4:22. Yeshua is talking with the woman at the well and said to her that they didn't know who they worshipped, but the Jews knew their G-d. Then he says, "You see, salvation is From the Jews". He did not say "to the Jews". Why didn't he say that salvation came from Him?
Another misconception is when Christians think that Yehsua died so that they could be saved. Oy! Can anyone name me a verse in the TaNaKh where salvation was not offered to the Gentiles that wanted to join HaShem? Of course not. There has always been an invitation and a plan for the salvation of anyone who wanted to join HaShem. It wasn't only Hebrews at the foot of Sinai, but they were all Israel. There were Egyptians there as well as descendants of Jacob. They all received the Torah together.
In short, what I've come to understand is this:
Yeshua came a died so that the sins of our forfathers that rejected HaShem and followed after idols could be done away with, once and for all. By this, our descendants are allowed access to HaShem and are given the opportunity to be saved. It is a great thing that he's done. But once we've returned, or made teshuvah, we must follow Torah and it is he that endures to the end that shall be saved. A little prayer when you're twenty doesn't give you assurance of "Salvation". It is walking daily with HaShem until the end that assures us a part in the Olam HaBa. As it is said, he that lives his life Holy and in his last days curses HaShem will have no part in the Olam HaBa, yet he who has lived wickedly, if he makes teshuvah at the end of his days, it will all be accounted righteousness to him.
I'd appreciate any comments and corrections in my reasoning. Thanks for hearing me out. I'm still not sure that I've made my view understood, I'm not sure how to articulate this subject well.
Be well,
Mikha'el
============================================
You've certainly kept me busy.
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