Recieving The Spirit

[Valid Name]

Greetings All,

Japheth, I am greatly curious as to your thoughts about this; I know that Mr. Hyssop and Mr. Hebrew I will bother shortly enough; even though they are of course welcome to come out and play!

________________

Yesterday I had the Privlidge to meet with members of the Latter-Day Saints. They seem to have my house on the list lately; I'm surprised it's not the black-list after my first meetings with them.

They talked to my mother, and she said she was sure I would be happy to talk with them; even though she didn't want to. She should have been chuckling when she said this, but she doesn't know my theology...yet (I hope).

So we talked about our assemblies, and their thought was that the one I attend, cannot have the Holy Spirit, because we have not recieved the 'Laying on of Hands' by someone in authority.

For those not familiar, they Believe that Joseph Smith (their first prophet) recieved The Ghost directly from John the Baptist and Yeshua, who they claim came down from heaven and bestowed this upon him through the Laying on of hands.

Now, I believe this to be false, that is, both Ideas.

Is the 'laying on of hands' anything besides a physical act? The Spirit is given by The Father, and not by the act of one touching another. Otherwise; what would be the point of belief if it could be obtained by touching another? Does one believe before they have hands Laid on them, and does not belief come only with The Spirit? So then would not The Spirit come before the Hands?

Anyways, I have few scriptures that I have looked at.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Here in Acts 10, did not these people receive the Ghost while he was speaking?

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Did Simeon have need to receive the 'Laying on of hands' to receive the Ghost? How is it obtained?:

Luke 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Before Messiah left, did he not say he would send the Comforter? How?...I didn't see a Laying on of hands.

So the question could be...by what authority is anyone able to receive the Ghost?

This was also the Question my mother first asked about my 'new church'; "by what authority are they aloud to baptize? wasn't Peter the First Pope?"

Sincerely,
Valid Name

[simchat_torah]

"by what authority is anyone able to receive the Ghost?"

I'm not sure what you mean by "what authority", but I'll venture to guess that you are referring to the Catholic doctrine of the papal authority going from generation to generation???

However, since we can easily disprove the papal authority issue by examining precisely what Y'shua meant when speaking to Kepha (peter) and then also by examining the role that Kepha played out (as Ya'acov, or James, was obviously the leader in Jerusalem) we need not even discuss the possibility of the authority referring to papal authority.

If I'm incorrect in my assumption, and you are talking about a different form of authority, let me know!

The laying on of hands definately does corrospond to a receiving of the Holy spirit to some degree, however, is it a neccessity to receive????

Not hardly!

There are 5 recorded instances in the book of acts where they received the Holy Spirit, and only in two (if memory serves) was the "laying of hands" incorporated.

This should suffice for an answer, nu?

Japheth.

[Valid Name]

Howland Island (amelia airhart?)

Greetings Japheth,

Well, the papal authority is kindof what I am speaking of.

Let's take this for an example. Man is stranded on a desert island. Finds a bible. Believes. He has the holy spirit right? He didn't need an earthly 'authority' to give it to him.

The Rock is indeed Messiah, and he is the Word.

Well here's one...can a non baptized believer baptize? In case a new guy shows up on the island and believes?

[simchat_torah]

Considering how the Holy Spirit was received in Acts two, among various other places, we can clearly see that it is not required for the laying on of hands.

".... can a non baptized believer baptize? In case a new guy shows up on the island and believes?"

Well, I think we are using the christian understanding of baptism if we are asking this question. Baptism, literally to immerse, is basically a mikvah. A Mikvah is taken for various purposes.
One could take a mikvah upon conversion, to repent and enact Teshuvah, a woman takes a mikvah upon the end of her monthly flow, and many other reasons are given for a mikvah to take place.

There also are no requirements for one to receive a mikvah from another individual, but one can take a mikvah (immersion in water) upon thier own free will, and even by themself. It can be an itimate thing, or it can be a public declaration (i.e. a mikvah upon conversion, ect.).

Shalom!
Japheth.

[D.W.]

Doesn't a mikvah require two people.
One to witness that the person is totally immersed.

Shalom Dan

[simchat_torah]

I think it's actually two witnesses... and the water must be "living water".
Living water is described in the Mishnah as water that is constantly flowing. For example, a river is living water, but a pond would not be living as it is stagnant. However, a pond that is spring fed would be considered to be living water.

This adds depth to Y'shua's statement that "out of your bellies shall flow living water.."

In otherwords, it should be constantly flowing!

more later...