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**simchat_torah** · 02-16-2003, 05:32 AM

Here are a few more Rabbinical discussions concerning vicarious atonement.

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R. Eleazar said: The Holy One, blessed be He, said to the Angel: Take a great man [rab] among them, through whose death many sins can be expiated for them.29
(29) According to the dictum that the death of the righteous is an atonement.

---Talmud, Berachoth 62b

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"Said R. Ammi, Wherefore is the account of Miriam's death placed next to the [laws of the] red heifer? To inform you that even as the red heifer afforded atonement [by the ritual use of its ashes], so does the death of the righteous afford atonement [for the living they have left behind]."
---Talmud, Mo'ed Katan 28a

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"...As a result of this principle, suffering and pain may be imposed on a tzaddik (righteous person) as an atonement for his entire generation. This tzaddik must then accept this suffering with love for the benefit of his generation, just as he accepts the suffering imposed upon him for his own sake. In doing so, he benefits his generation by atoning for it, and at the same time is himself elevated to a very great degree. For a tzaddik such as this is made into one of the leaders in the Community of the Future World, as discussed earlier.
Such suffering also includes cases where a tzaddik suffers because his entire generation deserves great punishments, bordering on annihilation, but is spared via the tzaddik's suffering. In atoning for his generation through his suffering, this tzaddik saves these people in this world and also greatly benefits them in the World-to-Come.

In addition, there is a special, higher type of suffering that comes to a tzaddik who is even greater and more highly perfected than the ones discussed above. This suffering comes to provide the help necessary to bring about the chain of events leading to the ultimate perfection of mankind as a whole................"

...............""According to the original Plan, the sequence of worldly events required that man undergo at least some suffering before both he and the world could attain perfection. This was required by the very fact that one of the basic concepts of man's predicament was that G-d should hold back His Light and hide His Presence, as discussed earlier. This became all the more necessary as a result of the corruption and spiritual damage caused by man's many sins, which held the good back even more and caused G-d's Presence to become all the more hidden. The world and everything in it are therefore in a degraded evil state, and require that G-d's unfathomable wisdom bring about numerous chains of events to achieve their rectification.

Among the most important elements of this sequence is the requirement that man be punished for his wickedness until the Attribute of Justice is satisfied. G-d arranged matters, however, so that select perfect individuals could rectify things for others, as discuss earlier. The Attribute of Justice therefore relates to them rather than to the rest of the world in general.

Individuals such as these, however, are themselves perfect, and are therefore worthy only of good. The only reason they suffer is because of others, and the Attribute of Justice must therefore be as satisfied with a small amount of suffering on their part as with a large amount on the part of those who actually sinned.

Beyond that, the merit and power of these tzaddikim is also increased because of such suffering, and this gives them even greater ability to rectify the damage of others. They can therefore not only rectify their own generation, but can also correct all the spiritual damage done from the beginning, from the time of the very first sinners.

It is obvious that individuals such as these will ultimately be the foremost leaders in the Perfected Community, and the ones who are the very closest to G-d."

---Derekh HaShem

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Column 4 (1) ". . . his Wisdom [will be great.] He will make atonement for all the children of his generation. He will be sent to all the sons of (2) his [generation]. His word shall be as the word of Heaven and his teaching shall be according to the will of God. His eternal sun shall burn brilliantly. (3)The fire shall be kindled in all the corners of the earth. Upon the Darkness it will shine. Then the Darkness will pass away (4) [from] the earth and the deep Darkness from the dry land. They will speak many words against him. There will be many (5) [lie]s. They will invent stories about him. They will say shameful things about him. He will overthrow his evil generation (6) and there will be [great wrath]. When he arises there will be Lying and violence, and the people will wander astray [in] his days and be confounded."
---DSS, 4Q541

(for all who don't already know this.... DSS stands for "The Dead Sea Scrolls")
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Hence the righteous man is, of a truth, himself an offering of atonement. But he who is not righteous is disqualified as an offering, for the reason that he suffers from a blemish, and is therefore like the defective animals of which it is written, "they shall not be accepted for you" (Lev. XXII, 25). Hence it is that the righteous are an atonement and a sacrifice for the world.'
---Zohar, Section 1, Page 65a

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For we have learnt that so long as Israel are in captivity, and cannot bring offerings on that day, the mention of the two sons of Aaron shall be their atonement. For so we have learnt, that Abihu was equal to his two brothers Eleazar and Ithamar, and Nadab to all together, and Nadab and Abihu were reckoned as equal to the seventy elders who were associated with Moses; and therefore their death was an atonement for Israel." '
---Zohar, Section 3, Page 56b

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When God desires to give healing to the world He smites one righteous man among them with disease and suffering, and through him gives healing to all, as it is written, "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities... and with his stripes we are healed" (Isa. LIII, 5). A righteous man is never afflicted save to bring healing to his generation and to make atonement for it, for the "other side" prefers that punishment should light upon the virtuous man rather than on any other, for then it cares not for the whole world on account of the joy it finds in having power over him. Yet withal another virtuous man may attain to dominion in this world and the next; he is "righteous and it is well with him", because God does not care to make atonement with him for the world. I said to him: If all suffered alike, I could understand, but we see a righteous man in one place who is sick and suffering, and a righteous man in another who enjoys all the good things of the world. He replied: One or two of them are enough, since God does not desire to smite all of them, just as it is sufficient to let blood from one arm; only if the sickness becomes very severe is it necessary to let blood from two arms, and so here, if the world becomes very sinful all the virtuous are smitten to heal all the generation, but otherwise one is smitten and the rest are left in peace. When the people are healed the righteous are healed with them, but sometimes all their days are passed in suffering to protect the people, and when they die all are healed.
---Zohar, Section 3, Pages 218a-b

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And when his flesh had been burned away to the very bones, and he was on the point of expiring, he lifted his eyes to God and said, "You know, O God, that though I could have saved myself I am dying in these fiery torments for the sake of the Law. Be merciful to your people and let our punishment be a satisfaction on their behalf. Make my blood their purification and take my life as a ransom for theirs." (g)

(g) The most explicit statement in 4Mac (cf. 1:11; 9:24; 12:18; 17:20-22; 18:4) of the concept of the martyr's death as a vicarious atonement for the people, a concept absent from 2Mac (6:30-33).

---4 Maccabees 6:26-28
(edited by James H. Charlesworth)

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R. Eleazar said, Wherefore is [the account of] Aaron's death closely followed by [the account of the disposal of] the priestly vestments?6 [To inform you] that just as the priest's vestments were [means] to effect atonement,7 so is the death of the righteous [conducive to procuring] atonement.
(6) Ibid. XX, 26, 28.
(7) Lev. XVI, 4, 24, 32, 33. Cf. Zeb. 88b.

---Talmud, Mo'ed Katan 28a

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Moses said to God: 'Will not the time come when Israel shall have neither Tabernacle nor Temple? What will happen with them then? ' The divine reply was: ' I will then take one of their righteous men and retain him as a pledge on their behalf, in order that I may pardon all their sins.'

---Exodus Rabbah 35:4

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And He said to the Angel that destroyed the people, It is enough28 [rab]. R. Eleazar said: The Holy One, blessed be He, said to the Angel: Take a great man [rab] among them, through whose death many sins can be expiated for them.29 At that time there died Abishai son of Zeruiah, who was [singly] equal in worth to the greater part of the Sanhedrin.
(28) Ibid. 16.
(29) According to the dictum that the death of the righteous is an atonement.

---Talmud, Berachoth 62b

**Thummim** · 02-16-2003, 01:13 PM

Presumptuous, .....?

...simchat_torah,

...I question the intent of atonement given the following verses of text.

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28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before YHWH, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 28 - 31

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...The idea of a presumptuous sin being non-atoneable seems to support the idea that such sins are not meant to have an easy solution available to their expiation. Any attempt to atone for deliberate sin seems sure to fail by these words of the torah. Atonement then must have another purpose in the law such as the cleansing of the holy place, or paying a fine to YHWH for ones transgressions against him. It is only unknown sins that can be atoned for according to these words. This is very clear. This would also disallow substitutional sacrifice for {intentional} sin. Do the rabbi's discount these words? What has the talmud to say on the ideas that these verses of text imply? Is atonement an act if cleansing or an act of transfering cost as penalty to YHWH, as a fine would do? Atonement is an important concept of the torah, but I'm not sure that the rabbai's realy understand it. Is there anything in the talmud to define exactly what atonement is? One can atone for sin without remissing it, it seems. YHWH isn't always pleased with atonements. They may have a ritual purpose that would leave the presumptuous sinner with his guilt. Atonement doesn't necessarily equate with forgiving sin, as I would define it. Can you comment on atonement for intentional sins?

....Michael

**simchat_torah** · 02-16-2003, 06:44 PM

Shalom Michael,

As per the Torah, there is no sacrafice for intentional sin, yet the Rabbis argue that the 'atonement', or rather what may release one from intentional sin, is Tzedakkah (righteous acts - or charity), Tefilah (prayer), and Teshuvah (repentance).

I do not recall the specific passage at the moment, and I'll have to go look it up, but there is a Rabbinical writing that states:

If a man live unrighteously all his life, but at the end of his life he turn towards righteousness... all shall be accounted as righteous in his life.
Yet if a man live righteously all his life, but at the end of his life he turns towards unrighteousness...all shall be accounted as unrighteous in his life.

Essentially, this shows an "atonement" for past intentional sins. There are quite literally hundreds of rabbinical writings stating this exact concept. However, there is no "sacrafice" given in the Torah for intentional sin... only Teshuvah (repentance).

Shalom,
Yafet.

**Thummim** · 02-16-2003, 08:31 PM

Atonement?

...Thanks simchat_torah, I really like the way that you summed it up in the following statement.

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As per the Torah, there is no sacrafice for intentional sin, yet the Rabbis argue that the 'atonement', or rather what may release one from intentional sin, is Tzedakkah (righteous acts - or charity), Tefilah (prayer), and Teshuvah (repentance).

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This answer easily fits the psalmist's answer.

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16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar. Ps. 51: 16 - 19

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...All of the above {tzedakkah, tefilah, and teshuvah} are infered by these verses. I however believe in unpardonable sin. These verses of course refer to someone who is in covenant with YHWH, to whom the mitzvot belong. A tyrant outside of the covenant, such as one whom YHWH makes war with, could not cover his past sins against YHWH with repentance to void his past transgressions. YHWH does have enemies who have offended him past their repentance. {unlike the Ninevites who were allowed to repent}

....Shalom, Michael

**simchat_torah** · 02-16-2003, 09:45 PM

Michael,

I'll just bounce this idea off of you and see what you think of it...

I too have pondered the psalmist when he wrote:

"For you do not desire sacrafices, for I would give it, nor do you desire burnt offerings. You, O G-d, desire a broken heart and a contrite spirit; that you will never despise...."

and again,

"you do not desire sacrafice, but obedience"

I have discussed this with a Rabbi, and he has yet to get back to me, but the idea I presented was this:

The psalmist was declaring that G-d desires no sin. Sacrafices must be made for sin, but rather than sin (which results in sacrafices) HaShem desires us to never sin...

Ultimately, that is the desire of his heart... that we may never enter into sin.

Shalom,
Yafet.

**Matthew23** · 02-16-2003, 09:53 PM

Isaiah 64:5-6
5...How then can we be saved?
6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Our own righteousness will release us from nothing.
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originally posted by Thummim
A tyrant outside of the covenant, such as one whom YHWH makes war with, could not cover his past sins against YHWH with repentance to void his past transgressions.

I believe that this is the one who is spoken of in Numbers 15:30-31.

with love,
matt

**Matthew23** · 02-16-2003, 10:01 PM

Yafet! You are onto something there! I believe the reason David says...
"For you do not desire sacrafices, for I would give it, nor do you desire burnt offerings. You, O G-d, desire a broken heart and a contrite spirit; that you will never despise...."
...is because YHWH would rather we be obedient and not need to offer a sacrifice for our sin. I believe that David isn't saying that a sacrifice is not required; he's saying that it's not desired- there's a big difference there. And the reason that it is not desired is because- If we have need to offer a sacrifice, it's because we've sinned. YHWH definitely does not desire that.

with love,
matt

**simchat_torah** · 02-16-2003, 11:27 PM

Exactly Matthew!

**Thummim** · 02-17-2003, 01:12 PM

Forgiveness without sacrifice.

5 O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of YHWH.

--> 8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, whom YHWH hath not defied? Nu. 23: 8

6 Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mi. 6: 5 - 8

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6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hos. 6: 6

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6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Ps. 40: 6

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...The idea that sacrifice is not required, except as a ritual of the priesthood, is supported elsewhere. I contend that it is foreign to the faith of YaHudaH, to make the altar {through offerings} a vessel of expiating the sin of the deliberate sinner. This has always been the realm of YHWH, his without requirement of offerings and sacrifices.

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5 And YHWH descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of YHWH.

6 And YHWH passed by before him, and proclaimed, YaHudaH, YHWH Elohenu, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

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...These verses of text speak nothing of sacrifice. YHWH is not bound by sacrifice to bring anything spoken here to fruition.

....Michael

**Matthew23** · 02-17-2003, 06:20 PM

Leviticus 1:4,5
4 He is to lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him. 5 He is to slaughter the young bull before the LORD , and then Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and sprinkle it against the altar on all sides at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

The substitute (the bull) is killed in place of the sinner in order to make atonement for the sinner. The shedding of blood is necessary for the sinner to receive atonement. It's that simple. To deny this is to deny the Levitical law.

Leviticus 17:11
11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

with love,
matt

**simchat_torah** · 02-17-2003, 09:30 PM

From the Torah:
"...but for intentional sin, there is no sacrafice..."

**Matthew23** · 02-17-2003, 10:47 PM

Originally posted by simchat_torah
From the Torah:
"...but for intentional sin, there is no sacrafice..."

Yes, but there are different opinions as to what exactly an "intentional sin" is.

Before we get into that, let's discuss "unintentional sin". Can anyone give me an example of this? The only thing that I can think of is, perhaps... a sin committed by someone who did not know that he was breaking a law of God; because he didn't know the law existed in the first place. This would be "sinning through ignorance". Am I on the right track?

**simchat_torah** · 02-18-2003, 01:44 AM

Not exactly...

sinning through ignorance is considered a "lack of knowledge" by Judaism... remember the verse, "My people die for a lack of knowledge" ?

I have an entire teaching drawing upon II Sam. 6 that I'll probably post tommorow... I'm sooooooo stinkin tired right now I must shut my eyes.

*dreams of koala bears*
ahhh, that's better.

Announcement

Atonement... slightly belated

Atonement... slightly belated

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