Do little children sin?

[Robin]

I'm nodding off....

Dear Valid Name,

I fully intended to get back to you this afternoon, but something came up and I was not able to. Now, I'm too sleepy to give a proper reply. However, I will try to address one thing tonight and, possibly, more tomorrow.

You asked me to explain this statement of mine more fully.

As a Passover Lamb, His death satisifies the death sentence of another. It does not satisfy the wrath of God. It satisfies the Love of God who spared Him not but freely gave Him for that very purpose. The salvation of the world through Jesus is through redemption, not forgiveness.

When we are looking at Adam's sin, which brought in death and brought about a need for redemption, I just don't see that we can see redemption in terms of satisfying any wrath in God. There are many kinds of biblical salvation, and some of them just don't involve any wrath of God, it's just that somehow all salvation has come to be defined as "saved from the wrath of God". This is just not scriptural. For example, in the book of Exodus, we see Israel saved from Pharaoh out of Egypt . That is very clearly a picture of Redemption and yet where is any wrath of God? Can we say then that their Redemption saved them from the wrath of God? Now look at them a little later in the book of Numbers at Kadesh Barnea when they would not enter the land for lack of faith. What did they incur there that they needed to be saved from. Yep. The wrath of God. God issued a death penalty on them, much like he did on Ninevah except it was not for their behavior, but for lack of faith.. The crisis that a redeemed people faced at the border of Kadesh relates to a promise, not to salvation. The promise given to Abram. So now we see a saved people left to die right where they were, in the wilderness. My point is, whether or not we see Egypt as a picture of sin (as you do) or a picture of death (as I do) I think we would have to agree that it is not a picture of God. So how can we say that our Passover Lamb died to save us from the wrath of God?

Jesus came to save the world from the fall in Adam, not to save man from God. Repentance has always been and still is the only way to be saved from God's wrath and penalties. All who we ever see saved from the wrath of God are saved by grace through faith. We never ever find a person or nation facing the penalty of God's wrath where they are allowed to bring in a substitute to take the wrath and they go free. The only escape and salvation from God's judgment is a broken and contrite heart. Redemption just does not relate to the wrath of God in any way. Jesus did not come to satisfy the justice or wrath of God, but to satisfy the Love of God by taking the sinner's place. He offered His life; an offering. He came that we might have Life. The blood sprinkled within the veil by the High Priest Himself gives us life. Jesus did not come to change God or turn Him around in favor to man but rather to change man and let him see the Grace of God in providing Salvation. To me, there's just all the difference in the world in the two views and I think we must seek the Truth in order that we might bring glory to the Most High God.

I will try to get back to the other questions. Oh, and Brad, thanks for talking to me.

Love,
Robin

[Matthew23]

Computer issues

Robin and Valid,

I noticed there have been a few posts the past few days. I haven't had time to read them, let alone type up an in depth response. My computer's gone haywire this past week: I had to dig out my "restore windows" disc and start all over again. YIKES! Oh well, now everythings all fresh and new again (kind of like those who are "born again.")

I'll try to play catch up this weekend.

your friend,
matt

[Valid Name]

Everybody Loves Raymond

Greetings Matthew,

I'll be out of town this weekend, I won't be back for a while either!

Peace, and Have a Good One!
Valid Name

[Robin]

Ships in the Night

Dear Valid and Matt,

I, too , will be out of town this weekend. Seems we're having quite a time synchronizing schedules for this thread. Glad your computer problems are solved, Matt. I did wonder where you were. Valid, have a safe trip.

Love,
Robin

[Matthew23]

Originally posted by Valid Name
I believe it would stand to reason that Babies would die because of Adam's sin.

Valid, you are absolutely correct! Now, I'd like you to address one of my earlier questions: "What 'sin' caused Messiah to die?"

Originally posted by Valid Name
If Adam's sin was imputed, why then does Paul in Romans 5 say that between Adam and Moses NO ONE sinned in the same way Adam did (ie, transgressed a Law)?

You make a very good point. After thinking and reading about it over and over again, I understand what you're saying. But the fact is, Adam is the reason that sin entered the world. He is the reason why we are born with "the curse", the curse David was born with:

Psalm 51:5
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Here we have David clearly declaring that he was sinful before he ever had an opportunity to transgress the Law. See also: Job 14:1-4, 15:14; Genesis 8:21.

Originally posted by Valid Name
If the Wages of Sin is death, and Christ took your punishment which is death, why do you die?

This is not easily answered, however, I will try to explain how I see it:
There are "physical" things, and there are "spiritual" things that Scripture talks about, as you are well aware. For example:
"physical things" ----------------------->"spiritual things"/"the ultimate things"
Israel------------------------------------body of Messiah
Passover Lamb---------------------------Messiah
Sabbath Day-----------------------------the rest we have in Messiah
Solomon's Temple------------------------our bodies
etc...

Through Messiah, there is the ultimate "spiritual" fulfillment in all of the above. The same is true with death/life. Our sinful flesh which is in the likeness and image of Adam will surely die- our "natural" selves will die. BUT ultimately, we have life through Messiah (John 3:16).

What I'm saying is: I will die naturally (unless Messiah makes a return before then), BUT ultimately, I will never die (the second death- see Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8)

Ultimately, all who are "in Messiah" will never die.

Originally posted by Valid Name
Here at Tzaddikim we do not believe that Adam's sin was imputed, nor do we believe that Christ righteousness is imputed. You die for your own sin. This is why you die, it is not good to die because someone else sin

Once again, I have to ask: How could Messiah, someone who never transgressed Torah, die? He never sinned! So, for whose sin did He die?!!!

I know, deep down, you know the answer, my friend.

with love and prayers,
matt

[Matthew23]

Robin, I'm not ignoring you... just trying to take one reply at a time. I'll get back with ya!

matt

[Robin]

On standby

Oh, it's fine, really. I'm getting used to it.

[Valid Name]

Somebody needs to cheer Robin up:

[Robin]

Low on the list

Thanks Brad. Yes, it does cheer me up to know that you have time to post jokes but not to talk to me. Really. It helps a lot.

My family is headed to the beach for the weekend. I'll be back Monday to talk to myself here some more.

Love,
Robin

[Matthew23]

Re: Sin and Death are not synonymous!!!

Originally posted by Robin
I guess you could say, Matt, that sin (Adam's or ours) caused the death of Christ, but I don't see it that way. A very different and opposite cause is given for Adam's death and for Christ's death. One death results from sin, but the other death results from righteousness. He was obedient unto death. Death humbled Adam, but Christ "humbled Himself". Death conquered Adam and reigned over his offspring. BUT Christ conquered death. Yes! Yes! Yes!

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Robin, Sin is what causes death. Messiah did not die because of His righteousness, He died because of sin- the sin of the world that entered through Adam. His righteousness caused something very wonderful to happen though: He was raised to life again!

If Messiah didn't die with my sins on him, then they are still on me... and that wouldn't be kosher!

your friend,
matt

[Robin]

The Truth

Dear Matt,

The trouble with finding scripture to prove a point is that I could find several that seem to suggest that sin is still present, even for a believer. All I'm trying to do is get to the Truth and, yes, I might be playing devil's advocate a little. That's the way I study, quite frankly. So, when you make a statement such as this:

If Messiah didn't die with my sins on him, then they are still on me...

I could come back with this:

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Or this:

Ephesians 4:26 "Be ye angry and sin not....."

Or this:

Hebrews 12:1 ".....let us lay aside the sin which doth so easily beset us....."

Now does this not seem to suggest that sin just might still be a living, potent force that can have power even over the believer who does not die to it? The believer who does not live in the ever present reality of the Atonement? The eternal, NOW, Atonement?

All I'm trying to do here, Matt, is just seek the Truth. Not based on anything I've read in a creed or in the teachings of any man. And also, really what I'm trying to do is bring some things up that Valid can't run to the articles section and find an answer for . Believe me, it hasn't been easy.

Love,
Robin

[Jennifer]

Hello everyone

It has been awhile since I've been around, well I am finally caught up in this section of Tzaddikim post world.

I would just like to mention one thing for now. Christ atoned for are sins, meaning that if we have faith in Him repent of our sins we will not be punished for them. He paid the price for us, and that is only if we do our part. If we do not do our part we must pay for them ourselves. Christ did not save us in our sins but from them.
Take Care, Jen

[Robin]

with what currency?

Dear Jennifer,

You wrote:

If we do not do our part we must pay for them ourselves.

Just how exactly would one go about doing this? I mean, would the "payment" be your life? And to whom would you give it?

You don't know me, Jennifer, so you don't know that I really am not an argumentative person. So please don't take this in that spirit. It's just that I am always fascinated by a person's view of these things and I'd like to know yours.

Love,
Robin

[Jennifer]

Re: with what currency?

I look at it this way if we do repent and feel we are forgiving we will face no regrets. If we do not own up to the sins we commit, we will feel much more remorse and guilt for what we have done. Christ suffered for all things not just our sins, grief/sorrow, pain from illnesses. Christ suffered all things for us so that we may not have too, even feelings of regret. True we often still feel gulity for wrongs we have corrected to the best of are ability. How much stronger would that gulit be if we never corrected those wrongs. Here on this earth we live on faith, faith that we can turn to God for a remission of our sins only through His son Jesus Christ. How will we feel when we come to stand before them, knowing we could have applied Christs attonement in our lives but refused to do so.

I hope this clears it up somewhat. I am not to good at explaining things. Usually I end up confusing the person more than anything. It makes sense up in my head it's converting it to writing and words that is hard for me.
Jen

[Robin]

Penal Sins

Dear Jennifer,

Thank you for your response and, while you didn't exactly mention what you see as "payment" for sins, you do bring up some other points. It is becoming more and more clear to me that all sins are seen as the same by most people. Indeed, I often hear people say that very thing, and yet God did not seem to think so when he was setting up the penal system for the nation of Israel. It seems that we may tend to think that every time an Israelite committed a behavioral sin, he brought an animal to an altar. But a reading of scripture will show us that if a penalty was attached to a "sin", the "sinner" paid the penalty. In some cases, restitution was made plus 20%. And, no animal ever paid a tooth or eye or life in order that his owner not have to pay. No animal ever took a few stripes or many stripes that was due another. If the "sin" carried a penalty, then the penalty was paid. The sacrifice of the animal was never then the "payment" for sins. I think maybe we just all too often accept at face value the things we have been taught, whether it be from an article on the Tzaddikim homepage , or something from a church creed or statement of belief, or tradition or whatever. (Dear Lord, let us never ever forget that the Holy Spirit did not die after the writing of the Nicene Creed by those who had the ear of Constantine.) But a closer look then shows us that the scriptures clearly speak of The Sin of Adam , The Sin of Israel , and The Sin of the World . And then, too, there are individual behavioral sins. Original sin, national sin, daily behavior. All have their place in scripture.

Now, Jennifer, you brought out remorse and suffering and sorrow. Sin may relate to the original entrance into the world with the wages of mortality or sin may relate to the many sins in the world with the wages of evil, suffering, and sorrow. The church has listed seven sins as the most deadly of all, calling them "The Seven Deadly Sins". They are pride, anger, lust, greed, envy, sloth, gluttony. What is the wage of those? Could be sorrow and suffering for the sinner as well as the one sinned against. Could be physical death for the sinner as well as the one sinned against. If the doer of these sins is a believer, it could result in the blaspheming of the name of God among the Gentiles. Which could result in the loss of an anointing or a commission.

Now, why do I go into all of this? These are just things I like to think about. The Holy Spirit leads me down these pathways of thought in order to show me more of the finished work of Christ and the efficacy of the One Offering of Himself.

So, Matthew, what sin do you see as killing Him? The Sin of Adam, The Sin of Israel, The Sin of the World, individual behavioral sins? What about you, Brad? Jennifer?

Love,
Robin