Do little children sin?

[Jennifer]

I've never thought about what sin exactly killed Christ. All I know is that the Law required a perfect sacrifice, so that all mankind would not be lost. Christ gave himselp willingly into their hands he had the power to stop them, yet He knows the will of the Father. Being sacrificed for all mankind is part of Gods plan. The atonement is a very profound subject, it's hard for one to completely understand it.
If there was no death or sin in the world Christ's atonement would not be needed.

[Robin]

just trying to get on the same page

Jennifer wrote:

All I know is that the Law required a perfect sacrifice, so that all mankind would not be lost.

Are you speaking of the "law" of the Kinsman Redeemer? Or some other law? I spend my days talking to six-year-olds so I can be dim at times. Please forgive me.

Love,
Robin

[Jennifer]

Re: just trying to get on the same page

I have not heard of the law of the Kinsman Redeemer, the law I was refering to was the law of Moses. I am interested in what the law of the Kinsman Redeemer is though.

It's ok I love questions, they help me to explain myself better.

[Valid Name]

Romans 5

Greetings Matthew!

You're not going to let me make a short reply are you? LoL. . .

Messiah died for our sin, but before you run away with that . . . It was our sin that killed him, that sacrificed him.

Does David's sinfullness mean that he Transgressed a Law? There was sin in the wolrd BEFORE The Law. What sin is does not change because there is a Law, but the Law Identifies it, and makes transgressors.

Now of course we are born sinful! Paul writes:

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The Day begins in the dark, and ends in the light! So likewise we are as Adam was, we begin with Carnal inclinations, and learn of the Spirit.

"physical things" ----------------------->"spiritual things"/"the ultimate things"
Israel------------------------------------body of Messiah
Passover Lamb---------------------------Messiah
Sabbath Day-----------------------------the rest we have in Messiah
Solomon's Temple------------------------our bodies
etc...

This is pretty good Matthew! I would change the sabbath to the Millinial Reign however! You might also want to note that Solomon's Temple was destroyed by Babylon. Another one was later rebuilt.

I don't think your explanation of why we die fits, if Messiah took our punishment. If the wages of sin is death, and death is what we get because we sin, then someone should be there to take this death. So if we sin and he took our death, it makes no sense why we die. He took it.

Can you find one example of anyone dying in scripture for Adam's sin?

Again, if those between Adam and Moses did not sin after the likeness of Adam, how were they guilty of Transgressing a Law like Adam?

Peace,
Valid Name

PS - Detroit Lost Tonight!

[Robin]

Hit in the head with a hockey puck?

Dear Brad,

Please! Tell me you didn't say this:

I would change the sabbath to the Millinial Reign however!

And, as if that weren't bad enough, you go on to ask this:

Can you find one example of anyone dying in scripture for Adam's sin?

Death reigned over all because of Adam's transgression.

Well, Brad, it's quite clear to me that you need some rest, as do I. I'll be busy for quite a few days. It seems that all of my resolving to not allow the social calendar to fill up has been in vain. So I'll have to leave this to you and Matt and Jennifer, with a wink and a laugh now and again from Hyssop.

Love,
Robin

[Robin]

One more thing..........

Hey Brad,

I'm just wondering about this. When I look at the "who's online" deal, I notice that often a guest is trying to register, and yet there are never any new members registered. Remember when I had so much trouble registering? Reckon that problem is still unsolved?

Robin

[Jennifer]

Re: Romans 5

Hey Brad,
I can see why you would change the sabbath to the Millinial Reign, the sabbath is a day of rest and a day for peace. The Millinial reign will be a peaceful one. Also there is a few symbols with it. God created the earth in 6 days rested on the 7th. The earth will also go through the same faze.

I like what you said about Solomon's temple another symbol of Christ. The Bible is full of them all pointing to one being Jesus Christ and His mission.

Can you find one example of anyone dying in scripture for Adam's sin?

Nobody has died because of the sin of Adam. His sin brought mortality into the world. We do not die for Adams sin we die because of the result his sin caused. Which is mortality, all who enter mortality will die with a few exceptions for some.

[Valid Name]

Re: One more thing . . .

Greetings Robin,

Thanks for letting us know about the Regestration thing. I can see the IP addresses in the who's online box. I do know that when we have like 7-30 guests on the board, they come from a 66.x.x.x address. These are 'spiders' that search engines like google use to take in info for searches. We are not that popular!

Hyssop (If you are out there!) - When registering there is an image verification security feature that is not working. I tested regestering with a new user and it would not let me. The image is an image that you must type in the text of what the image shows so that programs cannot register themselves. I'm sure you've seen it before! But it isn't working! I had to disable it so Robin could register, and then I reactivated it once she had!

emaN dilaV

[Matthew23]

Re: Romans 5

Originally posted by Valid Name
Messiah died for our sin, but before you run away with that . . . It was our sin that killed him, that sacrificed him.

Now we're getting somewhere!

Originally posted by Valid Name
of course we are born sinful!

I thought you didn't believe that. Now I'm a little confused

Originally posted by Valid Name
I don't think your explanation of why we die fits, if Messiah took our punishment. If the wages of sin is death, and death is what we get because we sin, then someone should be there to take this death. So if we sin and he took our death, it makes no sense why we die. He took it.

I see why you question my belief. But go back to my post that you quoted me from the last time, then think about this:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.
In the passage above, what does "shall not perish" mean?

Can you find one example of anyone dying in scripture for Adam's sin?

Yes:
Genesis 3:21 YHWH Elohim made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
Adam and Eve's own "work" (the fig leaves) were not sufficient to "cover" their sin .

Again, if those between Adam and Moses did not sin after the likeness of Adam, how were they guilty of Transgressing a Law like Adam?

Just like Adam, they have all returned to dust.

matt

p.s. It's always great to see the Red Wings lose. I still like to see Hull do his thing though!

[Valid Name]

Romans 5

Greetings Matthew!

I'm just going to comment on the born sinful part for now - And I'm watching sportscenter so If I screw up I apologize!

Being born sinful is not the same as being born a transgressor.

Imagine if we had an autobon here in the United States. There would be those who drive responsibly, and those who drive insanely. Kind of like now but with no speed limit.

Now considering the US has been tearing down jungle gyms because they are 'unsafe,' this autobon is not going to last very long! So they are going to enforce speed limits. These speed limits are not created for those who drive responsibly, but those who drive insanely.

Before the speed limit, they were still driving insanely, but they would not be issued tickets for it. Now that there are speed limits, they will be ticketed.

We are born in the flesh, and the flesh cannot and will not conform to the law:

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [/COLOR]

And the Law is made for the unrighteous (speeders):

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Adam being given a command, must not have been considered righteous! For he was given a Law!

The moral of the story is that we are born in the flesh, carnal, and later comes the spirit. It is enevitable, no one has a choice, they are GOING to sin. But they are not transgressors until they sin!

Peace,
Valid Name

[Matthew23]

Re: Romans 5

Originally posted by Valid Name
Before the speed limit, they were still driving insanely, but they would not be issued tickets for it. Now that there are speed limits, they will be ticketed.

There is something wrong with your anology:

You say that those who "sped before the law" were not given a ticket. I'm am assuming that you also are saying that the "wages of speeding" is "a ticket."

If your "speeders" didn't receive a ticket before the speeding law was made, why did the people from Adam to Moses die if there was no law to break?

My friend, I was born a "speeder". I've been busted for "speeding" many times, was condemned and put into prison! But then my Savior came and took my ball and chain upon His own feet! Now I'm free!

Valid, I love you, man!

[Valid Name]

Blake Media

Greetings Matthew!

Boy it's late! I'm watching Mr. Deeds. Actually quite inspirering! Does make one want to help other people and be satisfied with the simple things! Like Pizza!

Anywho - We can speak plainly, we get the idea of the speeders!

The people from Adam to Moses died because of Adam's sin! Now ask yourself, Is this Fair? Is it fair to be punished for what someone else did? Of course not!

This is why the Law was ADDED!

I'm going to try explaining this through a different light!

Imagine the Law is Physical. The ONLY thing that Matters, is that you do what the Law PHYSICALLY requires. No Faith required. Just get those phyiscal things done. Now, you say this is impossible right? I'm going to do this SO SIMPLY YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT! I'm not going to do ANY OF IT! No shabbat, no feasts, no clean food! And now I'm going to keep it perfectly! How? I'm going to bring a sacrifice! That will make it like I've done it all! Imagine if I had millions of goats! I could never lift a finger to of doing the law, except for bring sacrifices! I would still be a full fledge doer of the law, no matter how many times I purposefully sinned! Just bring a sacrifice!

However, the Law is Spiritual and this is not allowed:

Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

So now, Messiah is our sacrifice. We sin, we sacrifice. We do the commandments through our sin when we have faith in Messiah! His sacrifice makes us perfect doers of the Law!

Why do I mention this? Because when the Law entered, it created transgressors. But where there is transgressors, what is the potential of their transgression?

Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Law created sinners, and the potential for grace!

Now it is scriptural, that man dies for his own sin!

2 Chronicles 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

That is fair!

Jeremiah 31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Is there is a scripture out there, that says we do not die for our own sin - ? I only see ones that say we do!

Peace!
Valid Name

--I am royally tired, so if this is goofy . . .

[Valid Name]

Robin!

I will respond to you tommorrow! I promise! (G-d Willing!)

Peace,
Valid

[Valid Name]

Re: Hit in the head with a hockey puck?

Greetings Robin!

Originally posted by Robin
Dear Brad,

Please! Tell me you didn't say this:



And, as if that weren't bad enough, you go on to ask this:



Death reigned over all because of Adam's transgression.

Well, Brad, it's quite clear to me that you need some rest, as do I. I'll be busy for quite a few days. It seems that all of my resolving to not allow the social calendar to fill up has been in vain. So I'll have to leave this to you and Matt and Jennifer, with a wink and a laugh now and again from Hyssop.

Love,
Robin

I must say I always wore I helmet when I played hockey! And a Face mask! I certianly couldn't have some puck messing up this beautiful face! As it is, some say I look like I've been bobbing for french fries!

But, I certianly did say that! If you like you can read some of the reasons that I did here:

http://www.tzaddikim.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51

Adam created rule that applies to sin . . . you sin, you die.

This does not mean that you die because of Adam's sin. You die because Adam sinned, not because you are guilty of Adam's sin. You are guilty and die because of your own sin.

This is why I quoted this to you before:

2 Chronicles 25:4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

You asked a question a page or so back - ALL sin was place on Messiah.

Peace,
Valid Name

[Matthew23]

Re: Blake Media

Originally posted by Valid Name
The people from Adam to Moses died because of Adam's sin! Now ask yourself, Is this Fair? Is it fair to be punished for what someone else did? Of course not!

My friend, sin period, is not fair. Just like those from Adam to Moses died, so presently there are babies dying today whom have never transgressed a law! That is not fair!

The law was added for us to realize what righteousness is. And it is something that we cannot attain on our own. We, by our own strength, cannot perform all of the righteousness required by the law. The law tells us how HOLY our Elohim is! This is why the law was added! We are born into this world unable to perform the requirments of the law because of our fallen nature that has been passed onto us through Adam. We are of Adam's "image" and "likeness."

Originally posted by Valid Name Is there is a scripture out there, that says we do not die for our own sin - ? I only see ones that say we do!

Sin is SO unfair. Look at 2 Samuel 12:15 for an example of how sin kills unfairly.

But there is another kind of life and death that you seem to be overlooking: eternal life and eternal death. Look at John chapter 3:

1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

We are born once after the likeness of Adam (flesh gives birth to flesh). We are born again after the likeness of Messiah (spirit gives birth to spirit). In Adam we all die, but in Messiah we live forever.

Our flesh dies, but our Spirit will live forever.

What does "shall not perish" mean to you?

Valid, are you an Israelite who must look at the snake on the pole in order to save your flesh from death? Or are you an "Isrealite" who looks on the crucified body of Messiah in order to save your spirit from "death?"

your pal,
matt