Do little children sin?

[Robin]

Read the record....

Brad,

You wrote:

The Law created sinners, and the potential for grace!

What about this?

Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."

Robin

[Robin]

What???

As it is, some say I look like I've been bobbing for french fries!

I'm not getting the picture!

[Robin]

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

YES!!!

I've been wondering how to get "Junior Member" out from under my name. I guess it's 30 posts.

[Valid Name]

Good Evening!

Greetings Matthew!

This past weekend I had the privilege to enjoy Shabbat with Ab. This had been actually the first time we were together for an Assembly. Hyssop was invited to speak at another church, so he did, and we went, and it went well. He spoke about Original Sin, because he concluded that it was a pretty easy subject. However as we found out, it is a little bit hard to begin to understand our viewpoint on it. After service, we sat in the basement of the Church and Ab asked if anyone believes if Adam had a choice in the Garden. One of the Lady's emphatically said that he did, which was the exact opposite of what Hyssop had just taught. Ab asked why then if Adam had a choice, was Messiah foreordained before the foundation of the world? She said it was the backup plan. He left it at that.

What we know, is that we don't really have a choice if we are going to sin. It is eventually going to happen. If anyone (minus Messiah) is made flesh, they will sin. No one has ever gotten away without sinning.

We are of Adam's likeness. We are just like he was - Flesh. But Adam is of Elohim's Image, as are we. If something was of Adam's image, or much less ours, it might be something like a dog. Now the Traditional view says that Adam had a perfect nature, and he knew and would do what Elohim wanted. This is because Elohim created Man and Woman in his image. As you have known us here at Tzaddikim, I am sure you know how we see the spirit.

Man is the Physical Image of Elohim's Spirit. Elohim has created a world that we have to live in. We likewise, have physical hands that we can use to create, as Elohim has hands (Heb 10:31). Elohim as well has Eyes (Ezek 5:11), and Ears (Ps 18:6), and feet (1 Cor 15:27). So Adam was made in the Image of Elohim.

Now Adam was flesh, and flesh is against The Law of Elohim. The Law is not made for those who are or would be following the Law, but the Law is made for those who are Lawless (1 Tim 1:9). Adam was given a Command because he was Lawless.

Genesis 2:23 - 3:11 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked(#6174 'Arowm Plural), the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Now They being Naked found no shame in it, much as a little child does not.

(Story Time) Hyssop FINALLY Graduated from Wash U a few years ago (Giving him hard time) and needed to take an extra class for credits. He decided to take a Jewish Class, which was taught by a Rabbi. Hyssop asked if he might write his paper on Original Sin, and the Rabbi said "Sure, but what are you going to do about Genisis 3:1 where is says that the Serpant was naked?" Hyssop Smiled:

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil (#6175 'Aruwm Singular) than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The Rabbi knew that the Serpant was naked just like Adam and Eve. So now did Hyssop.

Now the naked serpant tempted Adam and Eve, and they did eat, and they did learn of Good and Evil. Eve was tempted by her flesh, for she saw with her eyes that the food was good to eat, and Eve coveted where there was no law, for she wanted to be wise Like Elohim (Gen 3:6). Like wise she took something that did not belong to her, yet there was no Law besides do not eat of that tree.

Now once they had eaten, they saw that they were naked, and made themselves fig leaf coverings to hide their Nakedness. After they had done this, Elohim inquired in Adam, "Where are you?" Adam Responded:

Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Now Adam hid because he was naked even though he was Not Physically naked (he had fig leaves). And Elohim did not say, "you are not Naked," but "Who told you?" Elohim already knew that Adam was spiritually naked, as we are.

We are instructed to buy White rainment because even though we might say that we have need of nothing, we might well still be naked (Rev 3:17-18).

So after Adam had sinned, Paul still has the same conclusion that Man is in the Image of Elohim:

1 Corinthians 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Now we know that it is the Natural Man that comes first, and then the Spiritual, for as There was first Saul, then came Paul.

You have said that those between Adam and Moses died, who did not Transgress a Law. If you will, you might help my logic of thinking how you are thinking when this is said.

If we Transgress a Law, we have imputed sin. Now it is the Traditional Claim (or so it seems) that Adam's sin is imputed to us, making us guilty of Transgressing that Law. If Those between Adam and Moses died without Transgressing a Law, how is it that they Transgressed no Law, yet we Have if Both (us and them in that time) are guilty of a Transgression that is imputed to us by Adam, there by giving us an Imputed Sin?

Those who Shall not Perish shall not take part in the Second Death. And I am the Second.

Peace,
Brad

[Valid Name]

Late Nights

Greetings Robin!

Glad that you have made it to Member Status!

I have worked in a few resturants, and Know how to cook French Fries! Toss them in boiling hot oil! Bobbing for apples is recommended, not french fries! One might wind up looking like me!

Grace (Strongs #5485 Charis) means:

5485 ca,rij charis {khar'-ece}
Meaning: 1) grace 1a) that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech 2) good will, loving-kindness, favour 2a) of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues 3) what is due to grace 3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace 3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit 3b1) a gift of grace 3b2) benefit, bounty 4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward
Origin: from 5463; TDNT - 9:372,1298; n f
Usage: AV - grace 130, favour 6, thanks 4, thank 4, thank + 2192 3, pleasure 2, misc 7; 156

The Grace That Paul Talks about, is something specific. It is a Free gift. There are different types of Grace. It can be the way we speak (Col 4:6, Luke 4:22), it is likened to an offering that we can give (1 Cor 16:2-3). It is something Mary as well found in the sight of Elohim.

Romans 5 and 6 talk alot about the Law and Grace. Paul Says in Romans 5:20 that where the Offense (Transgression) Abounded, Grace did all the More. Paul had a specific Grace in mind, and that Grace being the FREE GIFT of Righteousness.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift (# 5486 Charisma)is of many offences unto justification.

5486 ca,risma charisma {khar'-is-mah}
Meaning: 1) a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own 2) the gift of divine grace 3) the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue 4) the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith 5) grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit
Origin: from 5483; TDNT - 9:402,1298; n n
Usage: AV - gift 15, free gift 2; 17

This free gift that we recieve is the Gift of Righteousness, and as I am sure you have heard Ab and I say quite a bit:

Psalm 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

We are being given the gift of the Commandments through Messiah's Death. Messiah has died for our sins, they have nailed him to the cross. The Writer of Hebrew's writes:

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If we see that we have crucified Messiah to the cross, we understand what our sin does. It sacrifices The Messiah. Our sacrificing Messiah, is our righteousness. If we through our sin kill him, we have done a commandment, for The Law commands that if you sin, you need to bring a sacrifice.

The Transgression of Law is what sacrifices Messiah. If this sin kills him, it sacrifices him. And a sacrifice IS a command. Therefore through faith, we are freely become DOERS of The Law because if our sin sacrifices, our sin becomes a doing of the commandments. This is how Grace abounds through the Law. Where Transgression is, there is a Sacrificing (Free gift of Righteousness) of Messiah.

Jennifer rightly pointed out earlier that if no one sinned, Messiah's sacrifice would not be needed. This is true!

Peace,
Valid Name

[Robin]

If we see that we have crucified Messiah to the cross, we understand what our sin does. It sacrifices The Messiah. Our sacrificing Messiah, is our righteousness. If we through our sin kill him, we have done a commandment, for The Law commands that if you sin, you need to bring a sacrifice.

The Transgression of Law is what sacrifices Messiah. If this sin kills him, it sacrifices him. And a sacrifice IS a command. Therefore through faith, we are freely become DOERS of The Law because if our sin sacrifices, our sin becomes a doing of the commandments.

Good grief.

[Robin]

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.....

Dear Brad,

It has been brought to my attention that maybe I don't cognitively understand what you are saying. And perhaps my "good grief" comment was unkind. Now that I think of it, it is a little reminiscent of Charlie Brown who always did seem a little slow on the uptake. So, maybe you'd like to have another go at it and further explain your comments to me.

Love,
Robin