The Law

[barrykind]

This subject is very interesting to my wife and i and we would like to see how others veiw this topic.

First we must define some things because this topic is vast.

We see the Mosaic Law as when Moshe [Moses] came down from Mt. sinai.

The law must have been in effect from the garden.

For ex: Noah took 7 clean animals.
Abraham sacrificed a ram.
etc.

How do you see this and how does it tie together from the fall of Adam?


Just some pondering thoughts that i would like to share later in this thread, but would like to see how each of you veiw this matter.

Thankyou for your time in advance

[hyssop]

barrykind,

I agree. The Law has been in effect since the point in time that the Creator separated light from darkness. At that moment, there was a physical separation of light and darkness, but a spiritual separation of light and darkness (Law vs lawlessness) could have also happened.

As far as Adam and Eve are concerned, I do not believe that they "fell." I believe that they were created flesh (and we know that the flesh is enmity against G~d) and had no real choice but to follow the pulls of the flesh and sin (not much of a fall). Although G~d's Torah was in effect at the time, Adam and Eve were only held responsible for the one Law they knew-"Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." When they willingly and knowingly disobeyed this commandment of G~d, they got in trouble; until that point, G~d did not hold them accountable for sin (transgression against His Law) about which they were unaware.

[barrykind]

Adam

Although the statement of the "flesh" is emnity with God is true.
Would you see or not see that Adam's "flesh" was the "likeness" of sinful flesh as Yahshua's was, before Adam ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

And you think perhaps that Adam did not "fall"?

im not sure i understand your statement..please clarify for me, so as i understand..Thanks Hyssop..

[hyssop]

Hi, barrykind:

I believe that all flesh is the same. Adam's flesh, Yahshua's flesh, your flesh, my flesh. And, we all experience the pulls of the flesh. Now, the pulls of the flesh do not constitute sin, but submitting to these pulls in an unlawful way does.

For example, it is natural for men and women to be physically attracted to one another--it's the way G~d created us. However, there is a righteous way for a man and woman to come together (marriage) and a sinful path (fornication)--the same fleshy pull, two different outcomes. The basic work of flesh is sin; Gal 5:19-21 lists many of these works.

The traditional view of "the fall" is that Adam and Eve were somehow different than the rest of us--they started out pure as the driven snow and then exercised their free will and chose sin over obeying G~d. Afterward, the rest of us are tainted with a stain of this original sin and we're at some kind of disadvantage now. We might think, "If I'd have been Adam, we'd still be in paradise." That's silly. G~d ordained Yahshua from the foundation of the world. He knew that Adam was going to sin; that's the way that He created him. Paul says in Rom 8:5 that the carnal (fleshly) mind <B>cannot</b> subject itself to G~d's Law. Israel claims 613 commandments, Adam had a handful; Israel couldn't keep theirs, Adam couldn't keep his, and we couldn't keep ours. As much as I'd like to think to the contrary, if I'd have been Adam, I'd have done the same thing that he did.

Heb 4:15 states that Yahshua was in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin. Yahshua was flesh, just like you and me. He experienced the same pulls of the flesh as we do. However, G~d's spirit within Him allowed Him to overcome every temptation and never perform a work of the flesh: a sin. Our destiny is to overcome sin. Through Yahshua, G~d is creating in us the desire and ability to rise above sin and to perform righteousness.

Peace,

[barrykind]

Hyssop,

Would this scripture indicate that the "flesh" was different or would you think that it meant He was not conceived in sin therefore "likeness" of sinful flesh?



ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Shalom
barry

[hyssop]

barrykind,

Can you tell me what, exactly, you mean by being "conceived in sin"?

This is interesting stuff. I've given Adam and Eve much thought over the last twenty-plus years, but I don't remember ever drilling into it from this perspective. Thanks for the conversation.

[barrykind]

Most Common usage of "conceived" is the parents are not married/


This instance i was reffering to "concieved" in sin; being

That His Father was Yahweh. Therefore his bloodline was pure and not "sinful" as to the flesh.

Sorry for the delay..
Do i make since to you here?

i will post a segmant next that might cause one to ponder.

[barrykind]

Ponder this Brother

First Adam put to sleep
First Eve created out of first Adam

Second Adam (Messiah) put to sleep on the Stake (cross)
Second Eve came forth out of His pierced side

Third Adam (The Body of Messiah) in the earth today
Third Eve (The Bride) taken out of the sleeping Church

[hyssop]

barrykind,

I don't think that conception has anything to do with whether or not the father and mother are married. It is simply the moment in time when a sperm and an egg combine to form an embryo. When a woman "conceives" a child, it means that she has become pregnant; more specifically, the egg within her has just combined with a sperm cell to form an embryo.

Normally, sexual intercourse is the means by which the male and female reproductive cells are put in contact with one another. The Bible tells us that, in Yeshua's case, this did not happen; His mother, Mary, conceived before she and Joseph came together (Matt 1:18). Matthew goes on to state that she was "found with child of the Holy Ghost." The angel told Mary in Luke 1:35 that "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee . . ."

So, it was by the power of the Highest (through the Holy Ghost) that Mary "conceived" or, in other words, "became pregnant." And, when we carefully examine the details, we might attempt to identify the logical choices for how that may have happened:

• 1) Mary's egg was (somehow) fertilized by the Holy Ghost
  2) The Holy Ghost implanted a fertilized egg into Mary

Does this sound right, so far? If not, please help me stay on track.

p.s. That was a thought-provoking theory about the first, second, and third "Adams." To date, I've only considered two: the first and the second.

[simpleman]

barrykind,

I agree. The Law has been in effect since the point in time that the Creator separated light from darkness. At that moment, there was a physical separation of light and darkness, but a spiritual separation of light and darkness (Law vs lawlessness) could have also happened.

As far as Adam and Eve are concerned, I do not believe that they "fell." I believe that they were created flesh (and we know that the flesh is enmity against G~d) and had no real choice but to follow the pulls of the flesh and sin (not much of a fall). Although G~d's Torah was in effect at the time, Adam and Eve were only held responsible for the one Law they knew-"Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." When they willingly and knowingly disobeyed this commandment of G~d, they got in trouble; until that point, G~d did not hold them accountable for sin (transgression against His Law) about which they were unaware.

Adam was not made flesh, but was made in the image of Yahweh. He was given a garment of flesh after the fall. Why do people assume it was some kind of clothes?

Simpleman

[hyssop]

<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Simpleman</font><HR>Adam was not made flesh . . .<HR></blockquote>Simpleman,
I presume that you also think that Eve was not flesh until after the fall. I believe that they were both made flesh and, as far as I can tell, that view is scripturally supported:
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Genesis 2:23</font><HR><FONT COLOR=BLUE>And Adam said, This </I>is</i> now bone of my bones, and <U>flesh of my flesh</u>: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.</font><HR></blockquote>Am I missing something?