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**boomer** · 10-26-2005, 10:28 AM

Shalom hyssop,

I have just read several of you article on atonement and substitution. It was very interesting and I was hoping you can expand your thoughts on this subject. I myself am trying to work this out. I am stuck between agreeing with your view on Yeshua/substitution and the conventional views on substitution.

I would like to ask you some questions but I am not sure if anyone is keeping up with this forum. Can you respond if you are reading this.

Many thanks,

Boomer

**boomer** · 10-26-2005, 01:59 PM

Shalom Hyssop,

Here are two verses below which I believe refer to sacrifices as an atonement. This is not to negate that repentance brings forgiveness but is does define atonement through sacrifices.

"For the life of the creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement because of the life. (Leviticus 17:11)

"No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, �Know ADONAI�; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more. (Jeremiah 31:34)

In summary, I believe Yeshua's sacrifice was our Korban, an offering with a pure heart that atoned our sins. Secondly, His death was Israel's Yom Kippur sacrifice that �kasah" and "nassa" our sins.

Boomer

**hyssop** · 10-26-2005, 08:39 PM

Welcome

Boomer,

Welcome to the Forum and, yes, someone is usually monitoring the board for new posts (even though they have been sporatic for some time now).

The subject of sacrifice is a fascinating one. I believe that traditional Christianity has made the same error with the application of Yeshua's sacrifice for sin as ancient Israel made with the physical animal sacrifices. There is a tendancy to think that God will be appeased with just the perfect sacrifice or the right number of sacrifices, and that is just not so. The prophets chastised Israel for assuming that God simply required the spilling of blood to hand out forgiveness. For example:<BLOCKQUOTE>Micah 6 (KJV)<HR>[6] Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? [7] Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? [8] He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?<HR></blockquote>God is looking for obedience. It's just that simple.<BLOCKQUOTE>Psalm 51 (KJV)<HR>[16] For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. [17] The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.<HR></blockquote>Now, the question about David. According to II Samuel 12:13, God had forgiven David after he had confessed his sin. The next verse indicates that David's son born of Bathsheba gave the Lord's enemies opportunity to blaspheme and, therefore, would die. Although I cannot really expound on this, scripture surely indicates that this was not a "punishing your son in your stead" event. If the death of his son was David's punishment, I would have to look at it as God taking his son away from him rather then punishing his son in his place.

Hope this helps.

**boomer** · 10-26-2005, 09:26 PM

Shalom Hyssop,

Thank you for your reply. The reply on King David made sense.

I hope we can continue with this dialogue. I am currently in the Middle east and my day is almost over (night sift at work). I hope to expand some thoughts tomorrow. There is one question and one comment that comes to mind. Do you believe that the Yom Kippurim sacrifices each year atoned Israel?

As for Moshe, when he offered himself as an atonement for Israel (golden calf) Adonai refused His request because he was an unacceptable sacrifice. Why, because he would have been a blemished sacrifice. My belief is that Moshe's desire of an atonement was a foreshadow of the Messiah. Secondly, as we both have stated, man can not substitute himself for another man's sins. However, if Yeshua is Elohim in the flesh then He is not man per say? In fact, he was portrayed as an animal not as a man. He was a Yom kippur goat sacrifice, a pesach lamb sacrifice, and a red heifer.

Hope to hear from you tomorrow.

Shalom, Boomer

**hyssop** · 10-27-2005, 01:20 AM

Shalom Boomer,

I agree whole-heartedly with you: All of the Torah's animal sacrifices foreshadowed Yeshua's ultimate suffering and death. And, I think that traditional Christianity would also agree. I, however, quickly part ways with traditional Christianity at this point.

The issue, as I see it, is: "What was the purpose of Mashiach's atoning sacrifice?" Many say that Yeshua's righteousness is imputed to those who believe in Him. In other words, we are poor miserable sinners who cannot please Adonai on our own, and our faith in Elohim's death (Yeshua's divine nature) allows his righteousness to be "credited" to us. Thus, Adonai now looks upon us as righteous even though we are not. This is NOT Elohim's plan!

Elohim desires that men leave sin altogether and follow Him. One cannot claim to believe in Mashiach and continue to steal, to murder, to covet, to break the Sabbath, etc. Elohim requires the death of the sinner (the soul that sinneth, it shall die). This is not some future event in a believer's life; it is the here and now. Paul says that the believer buries his old self in baptism and is raised a new creature in Mashiach who no longer serves sin (Rom 6:3-6).

It's late, and I've got to get some sleep. I look forward to further discussion.

**boomer** · 10-27-2005, 02:22 PM

Hyssop,

I am in agreement with you that Yeshua�s death does not make one righteous. Righteousness comes from a pure heart that keeps and obey Adonai�s commandments. It is also correct that Torah teaches each that every man will bear his own iniquity. However, Torah provides an exception to this rule by teaching that forgiveness is possible when the sacrificial offering pays the penalty. We see this in the Yom Kippurim sacrifices and in lev. 4:20.

Concerning sacrifices, rabbinical Jews believe that prayer can replace sacrifices. However, if this was the case, then there would have been no need for Yeshua to die.

Proverbs 21:3 "To do righteousness and justice Is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice."

Note that the passage isn't saying sacrifice is unimportant, the passage is only pointing out which are more important.

Absolutely, righteousness and justice are way better than sacrifice. The provision for sacrifice is there because man �fails� to show righteousness and justice. There would be NO need for sacrifice if man was righteous and full of justice. Which do you think Adonai would prefer, righteous living or sinful living requiring sacrifice?

My personal belief is that the only acceptable atonement to Adonai for sin is that of Yeshua's blood. Adonai�s Torah never changes; this means one can not replace commands for sacrifices with prayer. Adonai has never left His people without a means of a proper and acceptable sacrificial atonement; the problem is those who don't recognize it's not achieved through prayer, but through Yeshua, our sacrifice.

Is it is also true in Torah that a man shall be put to death for his own crimes; UNLESS, the penalty is paid by a substitute. This is what the sacrificial system teaches us.

In summary, I am in agreement with you that Yeshua or any other sacrifice does not make a man righteous. Righteousness only comes through man�s humble and pure heart. Yeshua�s death was simply a �substitute� or an �offering� to pay the price of His iniquity. I believe Torah provides its own exceptions. It would be illegal for the Levites to offer a person as a sacrifice for another man�s sins. But Torah does not prohibit Adonai Himself taking the substitute for another man�s iniquity.

Shalom, Boomer

**hyssop** · 10-27-2005, 05:46 PM

Boomer,

As I see it, the Torah does not allow "substitutes" for the sinner (animal, human, or divine). You yourself have quoted many verses supporting this precept.

Consider for a moment that you are the father of two children (BTW, I have four). One child does everything that you ask of them, and the other disobeys at every turn. Which child gets punished? The disobedient, of course. Would you allow the good child to accept the punishment meant for the disobedient? Of course not. Why? Because one does not punish their disobedient children as a "payback" or to balance the scales of one's sense of justice. The disobedient child is punished with the intent that they learn that obedience is the proper behavior.

Adonai is no different. He says that the soul that sinneth will die. He will not justify (declare righteous) the wicked.<BLOCKQUOTE>Exodus 23:7 (KJV)<HR>Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.<HR></blockquote>Adonai will not punish the righteous.<BLOCKQUOTE>Pro 17:26<HR>Also to punish the just is not good, nor to strike princes for equity.<HR></blockquote>Yeshua called himself the "son of man."<BLOCKQUOTE> Ezekiel 18:20<HR>The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.<HR></blockquote>That being said, a couple of potential questions come to mind: "Then, why did Adonai institute the sacrifices in the first place?" and "What does scripture mean when it states that Mashiach 'died for our sins'?" That will take more than this one post to explain.

**boomer** · 10-27-2005, 08:10 PM

Shalom Hyssop,

We both know that the Mosaic covenant is about blessings and curses. For those who keep and obey Adonai�s commandment will be blessed a thousand generations, but those who disobey His commandments will be curse to the third and fourth generation. According to Torah some sins bear the curse of the death penalty. When Yeshua died he substituted His life so we would not have to suffer eternal damnation. His death paid the price or debt of the death penalty. Notice what Paul says,

Galatians 3:13 -- Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree�

When Paul said this, He was referring to Torah and Yeshua being hung on the cross (tree).

DEUTERONOMY 21:22 "If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.

According to 2 Cor 5:21, Yeshua lived a sinless life and did was NOT under this death penalty. Therefore, one must ask, why did Yeshua offer his life and why did He choose to die as a cursed man? To me, the logical answer is obvious; because we as sinners, having failed to keep Torah and thus fall under the death penalty. He died as a cursed man to redeem us!

ROMANS 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Disobedience to the Law has to be punished. Paul tells us that the wages of SIN is death (Rom. 6:23). But since it is Adonai's nature is to be gracious, He allows a way for sinful mankind to escape the death penalty required by the Torah. This is the gift Yeshua has provided, it is something that can not be bought or earned.

Isaiah 53:5 �But he was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities: The chastisement of our sins was upon him And with his stripes we are healed.�

Boomer

**hyssop** · 10-27-2005, 09:03 PM

Boomer,

I was wondering how long it would take for you to quote Isaiah 53. There is no doubt that Yeshua died for our sins. The correct translation of the verse is: "And he is desecrated from our crimes, oppressed from our iniquities." Our sin killed Yeshua. Through your sin, you murdered him; I murdered him; the whole world murdered him. This was in accordance with Adonai's plan laid out in the Torah. But, one has to look at his death as him laying his life down as a warrier against sin and the wiles of Satan. When a soldier lays his life down for our country, he dies for his country; he dies for us. The soldier doesn't die to pay any debt that we owe to anyone; most soldiers die as a result of a battle with the enemy. Satan moved wicked men to murder Yeshua. Satan thought that he was foiling Adonai's plan; he was wrong. He was unpleasantly surprised to find that he had actually followed Adonai's plan perfectly. Paul states in Corinthians:<BLOCKQUOTE>I Corinthians 15 (KJV)<HR>[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; [2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. [3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures; [4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures:
<HR></blockquote>Paul also wrote that Yeshua is our Passover lamb. The Passover lamb did not kill itself; Adonai did not kill it; Israel killed the sacrifices. We killed our spiritual Passover lamb, Mashiach, through our sins. Admitting that one's sin killed Mashiach is the first step in understanding Adonai's grace through Mashiach.

Boomer, I know where you are. I've been there. But, the substitutional death of Yeshua is simply not true. Yeshua died to enable us to lay hold on (through faith) the ability to stand before Adonai and say "Father, I have performed all of your commandments perfectly." This is Adonai's free gift (grace) for us through the death of Mashiach as our sacrifice according to the scriptures.

Shalom

**boomer** · 10-27-2005, 09:33 PM

Shalom Hyssop,

You said it was our transgression of sin that killed Yeshua. If we had not sinned then the Messiah would have not died. This my friend is true! However, one must NOT forget His death was a willful sacrifice. He was not like a lamb led to a slaughter against its will. He died willingly! Why, because animal sacrifices NEVER fully atoned sin. It had to be accomplished year after year.

Let me ask you something. Do you believe that Yeshua's death was predestined before the foundations of the world? In other words, why were millions upon millions of Bulls, goats, and lambs slaughtered throughout the ages before the arrival of Yeshua? Do you think maybe Adonai was teaching from the beginning that a Messiah sacrifice would atone sin?

If you notice, the sacrificed animals were killed against their wills to obtain their blood. But the sacrifice offered by the Messiah was a willing sacrifice. He was perfect, and needed no sacrifice for Himself, was willing to give His life that we might live. His one sacrifice accomplished infinite redemption, perfect and full and final and eternal atonement. His one sacrifice is sufficient for all human beings. Therefore, it never needs to be repeated.

Messiah's resurrection guarantees our resurrection. "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die; the Second Death.

"For the life of the creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement because of the life. (Leviticus 17:11)

I did some research on my verses I gave in my first posting:

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children,
neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

This judicial rule applies to human Torah judges. No Torah court is allowed to assign guilt collectively. Only Adonai is allowed to assign collective guilt. Remember Achan, and the punishment of his sin fell on the whole family. This, however, was a direct divine decision, and not one of an appointed human Torah judge. In order for the children to be punished as well as the father, the guilt has to be assigned to the children also, and not just the punishment. I.e. the children are also considered guilty of the crime. In the case of sacrificial atonement, however, only the punishement is assigned, and the guilt stays with the sinner until the penalty is paid.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

"Bear the iniquity" means to be guilty. I should define "guilt": Guilt means a just liability to punishement. Yeshua was punished, yes, for our sin, but He did not have a just liability to be punished himself.

Jer 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

"Own iniquity" presumes the guilt of the sinner. This is the norm or standard of Torah, but Torah provides an exception to this rule by teaching that forgiveness is possible when the sacrificial offering pays the penalty.

Leviticus 27:29 'No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

This refers to devotion to destruction (Haram). The Canaanites were Haram, but except for the seven wicked nations, the rest of the nations were not Haram and could be redeemed.

Boomer

**boomer** · 10-28-2005, 05:25 PM

Shalom Hyssop,

My feeling is that, Elohim is our sole savior. He may choose to redeem us in any way He pleases. ELohim is not confounded to one way of forgiveness. I believe scripture supports sacrifices which atones sins. That Messiah�s blood was an atonement that paid the penalty of death for us.

"For the life of the creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for yourselves; for it is the blood that makes atonement because of the life. (Leviticus 17:11)

There are many verses to the Tanankh that talk about the Israelites offering their children as sacrifices to the pagan god molech. Perhaps it was this type of mindset that led to people believing one can pay for sins by offering another person in his stead. These Israelites who offered human sacrifice for their sins probably felt that Adonai would accept another persons life as a substitute. However, Adonai makes it clear that no one can redeem our sins except Adonai Himself. Only He can provide a substitute! Only a Divine Being can redeem mankind, as Psalms 49:7, makes it perfectly clear that �No man can by any means redeem (padah) his brother, or give to Elohim a ransom for him.� The Tanakh clearly says only Adonai can redeem us with a ransom. A few verses later in Psalms 49:15 it says, �God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol; for He will receive me�. Who can (padah), that is �ransom,�us from the grave? Elohim! He is our substitute!

Isaiah 43:11 say, �I, even I, am the LORD, and there is no savior besides Me...Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior!� This same sentiment is repeated in Hosea 13:4: �Yet I have been the LORD your God since the land of Egypt; and you were not to know any god except Me, for there is no savior besides Me�

Yeshua was not just a man, He was a divine human being. Both being deity and human. When Israel sinned intentionally (avon) against Adonai, Adonai provided them an atonement through animal sacrifices. But when Israel willfully sinned (peshe) against Adonai, only one sacrifice was provided as an atonement. This was the Yom Kippur sacrifice. This sacrifice continue over and over each year, why? Because animal sacrifice wasn't adequate for murder and sins under the death penalty, it wasn't an equivalent life. Yeshua on other hand, unlike animal, was a sinless and was a willful sacrifice; therefore he was an acceptable Yom Kippur sacrifice. His death was our stead to pay the price.

Boomer

**hyssop** · 10-28-2005, 06:50 PM

Shabbat shalom, Boomer:

It appears that you are firmly ground in the traditional view of the substitutional death of Yeshua. That is unfortunate; I initially thought you could see how wrong it is to believe that Adonai would punish the innocent in the stead of the wicked. Although scripture can be twisted to fit the concept (II Peter 3:15-18), there is no hard evidence that Adonai will accept substitutes and many scriptures that support the contrary. Further, you may want to consider the fact that Satan is the deceiver of the whole world, and traditional Christianity is no exception. Just look at the problems Paul had keeping the church on track while he was alive. How long do you think it took them to "fall away" from the truth when he was gone?

So, if you are ever moved to study Adonai's grace and the non-substitutional death of Yeshua with an open mind, please let me know. In the mean time, may Adonai guide and direct you according to the purpose he has in store for you.

**boomer** · 10-28-2005, 07:52 PM

Shabbat Shalom Hyssop,

I am not purview to anyone�s view. Understanding scripture is life long study. Sometimes we see things clearly and sometimes things are blinded until His timing. I sorry, I just do not see things your way. I am not saying you are wrong and I am right, I am just saying that I am working it out. As I see it, the Messiah is something greater than animal sacrifice. His death represented something more then a guilt offering. To me His death was an OLAM; a rising offering that gave me the opportunity to rise again.

Do I feel that Christianity is misled by the true meaning of Grace? Absolutely! No doubt about it! However, one must not forget that grace is a free gift, a gift that can not be bought or earned.

Do I believe the wicked, the murders, the liars, the adulterers will die a second death? Absolutely! But I also feel those who love Adonai and miss the mark of the Torah will have salvation too. Salvation in my opinion is Adonai�s mercy to rescue us from our sins and His wrath. If we were not sinners then there would be no need for His salvation. Because we fall short of it, He picks up our slack. This is His mercy. Someone once said, �It is one thing to stumble on Torah as Adonai�s grace covers you but it is another thing to complete ignore it. This is how I define wickedness; to totally deny Adonai�s Torah and defiantly disobey it.

Notice what Mat 5:19 says, �Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.� Here, Yeshua talks about two types of believers; those who keep and obey Torah and those who break and teach against it. Please note; both groups will be in the kingdom of heaven! One will be called great and one will be called least. Could we not categorize one group of those who misses the mark on Torah?

How about that thief on the cross? He missed the mark on being Torah observant. But yet we find him receiving the gift of eternal life. Secondly, no where do we read that he asked for forgiveness or repented of his sins. Perhaps it was His belief and faith in the Messiah�s death that gave him salvation. Perhaps it was His faith on Yeshua�s substitution that paid the debt of his death penalty.

Here is my point; none of us knows Adonai�s mercy. His mercy is beyond on comprehension. Only He is the judge of all things. And only He defines His rules. If Torah says �blood that makes atonement because of the life� then what are we to believe? If His way of forgiveness was meant as a free gift, then who are we to ask why? If His mercy extends to His sacrifice then who are we to question His payment of our death penalty debt?

Boomer

**ImAHebrew** · 10-29-2005, 10:51 PM

Redeemed FROM sin, not IN sin.

Shalom Boomer,

Greetings to you. You have a very keen eye to even bring up the issue of substitutionalism, and yes, it is very difficult to look at Messiah's sacrifice in non-substitutional terms. But think along these lines. Elohim is in the process of delivering mankind OUT of sin, and not saving them while they remain IN their sin. This salvation FROM sin is one of the key's to understanding Yeshua's sacrifice. The writer of Hebrews tells us that the death (blood) of bulls and goats could not TAKE AWAY sin:<BLOCKQUOTE>Hebrews 10:4<HR>For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Boomer, just re-read Hebrews 10 with the mindset of seeing how the sacrifice of Yeshua is causing the sinner to CEASE from their sin, thereafter, making all sacrifice for sin unnecessary. On the other hand, the animal sacrifices would not cause the sinner to CEASE from their sin, because what remorse does the death of an animal produce, especially when all one has to do is present another animal to sacrifice after one continued to sin again. But this is not the case with Messiah's sacrifice, once we know the truth that we did cause Him to suffer so by sinning, we cannot remain in sin:<BLOCKQUOTE>Hebrews 10:26<HR>For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sin,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you see? Yeshua is TAKING AWAY our sin from us, by purifying us from being sinners. John states this also:<BLOCKQUOTE>1 John 3:5<HR>And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The gift that starts us on the path of NOT SINNING, is the free gift of righteousness that we receive from our sacrifice of Yeshua. Grace is one of the most misunderstood doctrines of traditional christianity. Righteousnesss is the free gift that all sinners have through the death (blood) of Messiah. For all sinners, through their sin, did sacrifice Yeshua. Sacrificing Yeshua fulfills the just requirement of the Torah, which all sinners are required to do. All sinners were required to sacrifice for their sin, and Elohim has allowed us to do this through the sacrifice of His Son. But this fulfillment is not according to the physical keeping (by works) of the Torah, rather it is the Spiritual fulfillment of the Torah:<BLOCKQUOTE>Romans 8:1-4<HR>There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yeshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, Elohim sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled by us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeshua allowed us to kill (sacrifice) Him (with the help of wicked men-Acts 2:23), and His death is turned into righteousness (doing with the Torah required) for all sinners. This takes faith to believe and accept. And once a sinnner accepts this righteousness, it FORCES the sinner to stop sinning:<BLOCKQUOTE>Acts 3:26<HR>Unto you first Elohim, having raised up his Son Yeshua, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE>Titus 2:11-15<HR>For the grace of Elohim that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great Elohim and our Savior Messiah Yeshua; (14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (15) These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE>2Peter 2:20-22<HR>For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Master and Savior Messiah Yeshua, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteo2usness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>IF a sinner repents and accepts this righteousness, and then falls back into deliberate sin, they are re-crucifying Yeshua all over again:<BLOCKQUOTE>Hebrews 6:6<HR>If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of Elohim afresh, and put him to an open shame.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Boomer, the true purpose of sacrifice was a way in which the sinner could become ONE with the offering (laying their hands upon the head), and then be put to death WITH the offering:<BLOCKQUOTE>2 Corinthians 5:14<HR>For the love of Messiah constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>All sinners DIED in the death of Messiah, and a believer is one who realizes and accepts this. A believer must then conform to the new life that they are raised up into, and destroy what they used to be prior to their believing. Now, if this new person in Messiah REBUILDS themselves back into what they were before they died with Messiah, they truly prove they are transgressors:<BLOCKQUOTE>Galatians 2:17-18<HR>But if, while we seek to be justified by Messiah, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Messiah the minister of sin? Elohim forbid. (18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you truly believe that Elohim is in the business of saving sinners substutitionally, just so He can forgive them? Forgiveness is truly something very easy to give, easier in fact than to tell someone to take up their mat and walk. What He truly wants is that ALL sinners would be saved FROM their sin (from their hearts they would no longer live in sin), and this can only be accomplished through the sacrifice of Messiah. Hopefully, this has helped you to better see that Yeshua's sacrifice was a non-substitutional sacrifice. His sacrifice was a sacrifice to allow you to die with Him and then be redeemed FROM sin.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

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Substitution, atonement, and punishment for another man's sins

Substitution, atonement, and punishment for another man's sins

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