Substitution, atonement, and punishment for another man's sins

[boomer]

Shalom ImAHebrew,

Thank you for joining this discussion. Your thoughts are well taken. If it is ok with you, I would like to side step the topic of substitution and talk a little bit about one of the verse you gave.

Hebrews 10:26 - "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

This is a hard verse for many Torah keeping believers and Christian to understand. Myself, I have struggled with this verse. In my opinion, one can not understand this verse unless one knows a little Greek.

I am not a Greek or Hebrew scholar by any means. However, like Hyssop, I have been taught Hebrew by an Israeli friend. As for the classical Greek language, I am still at the baby steps and only know a little vocabulary and grammer.

Please note the four possible words for "sin":

1. amartian – (hah-mar-tea-on), sins or sinful acts (to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin)
2. amartias – (hah-mar-tea-ahs), sin nature, cause of sin, proneness of sin, condition of a sinful man.
3. amartanei – hah-mar-tah-nay), to sin against someone or against Adonai Himself.
4. amartanw – (hah-mar-tah-no), a great sin that leads to death.

If you notice, all four of this words have similar root words but they all have different endings. If you look them up in some bible searches such as www.blueletterbible.com you find they only use the strong word hamartia (strongs 266). Blueletterbible defines this word as a "sinful act". But a good Strongs book uses and defines serveral words for "sins". See http://eaglescc.org/htmlbible/CONGRK26.htm. Classical Greek also defines "sin" as "sin nature". Secondly, in classicle Greek we find phrases such as 'the law of sin' (monos tis amartias) or Sin's Flesh’ (sarx amartias). Both of these phrases have the meaning of "sin nature". Here is some examples of the different types of sin:

SIN NATURE:

Hebrews 9:28 - SIN NATURE

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins (amartias – sin nature) of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

SINFUL ACT:

Hebrews 5:1 “For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things [pertaining] to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. (amartia(n) - sins or sinful acts)”.

Hebrews 10:26 - WILLFUL SIN OF DEATH

The verse you gave, Hebrews 10:26, uses two different Greek words for "sin" (amartanw and amartian).

Hebrew 10:26 For if we sin (264 – amartanw – great sin that leads to death) wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins (266 amartian - sins or sinful acts).

I said all this to say this. When Israel sinned with the golden calf they committed a great sin. When the Israelites made strange fires to false idols, they committed a great sin. When the man created a fire on the Shabbat he willfully defied Adonai and committed a great sin. They were sin against Adonai PERSONALLY. None of these sins were Avon or Chattan. They were consider willful definate sins, that is, Pesha. Pesha is defined as sin that willfully spites, slander, or defy Adonai personally. Blasphemy against the Ruach HaChodesh is willful sin that demeaner and slander Adonai. Avon or Chattan are sins committed from an impulse or from desires against ones self control.

Secondly, it is these types of great sins that Torah defines as needing two or more witnesses to pass judgment. This is why hebrews 10:28 says,

"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses".

So, in a sense, you are correct. If we have full knowledge that Yeshua died for our sins to pay the debt of the death penalty and then if we continue committing willful sins (pesha- great sins) against Adonai then there is no sacrifices left for us.

Boomer

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom Boomer,

Taking your explanation of the various Greek words for "sin," how do you explain this verse:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1>1 John 5:16</font><HR><font color=blue>If any man see his brother sin (264) a sin (266) which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin (264) not unto death. There is a sin (266) unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.</font color><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And Boomer, please give me a Scripture that states:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1>Quote from Boomer</font><HR><font color=teal>"Yeshua died for our sins to pay the debt of the death penalty"</font color><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Also, did you understand the explanation for Grace?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

[boomer]

ImAHebrew,

I have to get back with you one the John verse. As for Yeshua dying for the our debt (death penalty), I stated it in a earlier post.

Galatians 3:13 -- Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us -- for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree”

When Paul said this, He was referring to Torah and Yeshua being hung on the cross (tree).

DEUTERONOMY 21:22 "If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of God.

As for Grace, I am still working this out. I am still leaning towards the traditional understanding that one can not buy buy or earn chesed.

Should have more time tomorrow. Again, thanks for your postings.

Boomer

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom Boomer,

I have a very good response to Gal 3:13 that is non substitutional, but I would first like to see if you know what Paul meant by "curse of the law," and what it means to be redeemed from the "curse of the law?" Explain the mechanics of it, and I think that might help us in the long run?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

[boomer]

Shalom ImAHebrew,

You asked, "what Paul meant by "curse of the law," and what it means to be redeemed from the "curse of the law?"

The Torah is made up of curses and blessings. This blessings and curses are defined in Deut 27 & 28. Those who keep and do Torah will blessed for a thousand generations but those who fail to keep Torah will be cursed to the third and fourth generation. Torah even goes further and declares that some sins fall under the curse of the death penalty. I believe there is around 25 - 30 of these sins that fall under this catagory. Torah makes it clear that when someone commits one of these sins it requires the death of the sinner. Yeshua's death was Adonai's gift that stood in place of the sinner punishment.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of Elohim is eternal life in Messiah Yeshua our Adonai.

Boomer

[boomer]

Shalom ImAHebrew,

I look up 1 John 5:16 and inserted the "sin act" and "sin nature" in the respective places. I see no contraversy. Here is how it would read:

1 John 5:16

If any man see his brother sin (264 -commiting a sin act ) ; sin (266 - his sin nature) which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin (264 sin nature is) not unto death. There is a sin (266 a sin act) unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Edited for correction:

If any man see his brother sin (264 -commiting a sin act ) ; sin (266 - his sin nature) which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin (264 sin act is) not unto death. There is a sin (266 a sin nature) unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Boomer

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom Boomer,

Paul gives a very specific quote when he speaks of the "curse of the law." He quotes Deu 27:26 (from the LXX with a slight modification):<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1>Galatians 3:10</font><HR><font color=blue>.....Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them</font color><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Paul is stating that if a person does not continue in ALL things written in the law TO DO THEM, he is cursed. Now Boomer, how is a believer redeemed from this curse? I want you to think of the mechanics. Are you redeemed from this curse because you NO LONGER have to do them? Are you redeemed from this curse because someone else is DOING THEM for you in your stead? Are you redeemed from the curse because the law is DONE AWAY (and remember-it is ALL things/commands written in the law TO DO THEM)? Or is the redemption from the curse that you are NOW CONTINUNING to DO ALL that is written in the law, not by works (the physical keeping of the law), but rather according to the Spiritual doing/fulfillment of the law?

Your answer focused on the punishment for not doing the law, and you just want to think that you are redeemed from the punishment. Think along the lines of being redeemed from not conforming to or doing the law. This is the whole problem with substitutionalist, they think being redeemed from sin is only being redeemed from the punishment that comes from sinning, and not the sin itself. When Elohim redeemed Israel from Egypt, He redeemed them from the slavery they were under, and brought them out to be free to worship Him. This is what is happening to those whom Elohim is redeeming OUT of sin through the "outstreched arms" of Messiah.

I'm running short on time. The problem with your explanation on G264 and G266 is that you said G264 was a "great sin that leads to death," and John uses G264 in describing a sin that is NOT unto death. If you look closely at your last translation of 1 John 5:16, you will see that you switched the definitions of each word on the second line.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

[boomer]

ImAHebrew,

You are correct, cursed is everyone who does not do what is written in the law. As I stated this earlier in my post; those who keep and do Torah will be blessed and those who fail to keep Torah will be cursed.

I believe our contention is not what the curse of the law is, but how we are redeemed from it. First, I have never stated, that redemption of the Messiah means we don't have to keep Torah; I am simply stating that the Messiah steps in for our death penalty when we fail to keep Torah perfectly.

Those who have a humble heart and fail to keep the Torah perfectly in my opinion is NOT Torahless. Messiah is there when we stumble to keep Torah perfectly. He steps in for our punishment. Those who totally ignore and refuse to keep torah for the spite of it are men of lawlessness. They have are the ones who do not know or love the Messiah. They are the one who have spilled the Grace of the Messiah.

In my humble opinion, Adonai does not judge a person because He fails to keep Torah perfectly rather He judges a person's heart and desire to keep them. Secondly, Torah can not be broken. If one sins and if that sins requires the death penalty it must be paid. This is why Adonai created a day called Yom Kippur. It was this day Adonai forgave the sins of Israel.

I have three questions for you. Why was or what was the purpose of Yeshua being a cursed man hung on the tree (cross)? What was the purpose of the Yom Kippur sacrifice? Do you believe that the Yom Kippur sacrifice atoned for the sins of Israel?

Boomer

[boomer]

Shalom ImAHebrew,

I think one of the misconceptions is to think we killed Yeshua our Messiah. I do not think this is technically correct. Yeshua was indeed a sacrifice, per se, but He was not a sacrifice in which we (all sinners) killed Him. Yeshua was more of an offering He took upon Himself. By this I mean, He willingly offered Himself as a sacrifice. This is why before His death, Yeshua told Peter, “Do you not think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?” This is a clear statement which proves that Yeshua willingly gave Himself as an offering and that “no one” sacrificed Him against His own will.

In Torah Moshe tried to do the same thing as Yeshua and offered himself as a sin offering. When the Israelites committed the great sin and created the golden calf they fell under the curse of the death penalty. Moshe and his wisdom asked Elohim if he could substitute Himself as an offering to redeem Israel. Adonai answered and said, “Whosoever has sinned against Me, him will I blot out of My Book.” From here, we can conclude two things. First, it is possible that Adonai denied Moshe because He himself was a sinner (a blemished offering) and therefore could not redeem his people. Second, only Adonai Himself can forgive sin and blot out someone from the book of life.” Yeshua being an unblemished offering and YHVH in the flesh was perfectly capable of atoning man’s curse of the breaking Torah.

As an example, let’s look at Micah 6:6-8 that is on your home page. Here, we read that Adonai is concerned more for righteous living then any sorts of sacrifice. In other words, “To obey is better than sacrifice" (1 Samuel 15:22). We also read that Adonai is not pleased in sacrifices of ones' first born. Micah 6:6 is in reference to king Moab in which he gave his first born as a sacrifice? For the Israelites, it was a common practice for them to offer their children as sacrifices to false pagan gods. We see this in many scriptures and even find archeological evidences of this.

Notice what Micah 6:6-8 was in reference to. It was in reference to king Moab:

Michah 6:5 “O my people, remember now what Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him from Shittim unto Gilgal; that ye may know the righteousness of the LORD.”

Here is the next verse that is seen on your home page:

Micah 6:6-8 "Wherewith shall I come before the L-RD, and bow myself before the high G-d? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the L-RD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the L-RD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d?"

Notice Micah 6:5-8 is in reference to King Moab who offered his first born as a sacrifice:

2 Kings 3:26 And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too fierce for him, he took with him seven hundred men who drew swords, to break through to the king of Edom, but they could not. 27 Then he took his eldest son who would have reigned in his place, and offered him as a burnt offering upon the wall; and there was great indignation against Israel. So they departed from him and returned to their own land.

Yeshua was not a sacrifice that we (sinners) offered Him up as a substitute for our sins; rather Yeshua willingly offered Himself to take the place of the death penalty. We did not put our sins on him. He made the offering Himself. He placed our curse, the death penalty, upon Himself.

The difference between Yeshua’s sacrificial offering and the Israelites of the Tanakh is that Yeshua offering Himself. The Israelites on the other hand, offered others (usually their children) to their pagan gods. It was NOT a selfless sacrifice. It is against Torah to offer up another human in your stead for you sins. However, Yeshua was not offered in our stead per se. He offered Himself as an offering to bear our curse of the death penalty for breaking Torah. This is a big difference than what the people in 2 kings 3:26 and Micah 6:6-8 were doing.

Boomer

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom Boomer,

My time is limited and I want to give you answers to your questions so if you have patience, I will try to put something together this evening.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

[boomer]

Shalom ImAHebrew,

No problem, we are all limited on time. Lucky for me (not really), I am away on an assignment from my family for another two months. This gives me more time to study.

I am more concerned with your view on how Yeshua was a curse for us. What is your view of Yeshua being a cursed man in Gal 3:13?

"Yeshua hath redeemed us FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse FOR US… FOR US… FOR US: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree"

This verse seems to correlate with Isaiah 53:5

“But he was wounded for ourtransgressions, He was bruised for ouriniquities: The chastisement of our sins was upon him And with his stripes we are healed.”

The LAW is NOT A CURSE. The DEATH penalty that comes from breaking the law is the curse.

[ImAHebrew]

We caused the cursing of Messiah, but it is turned into a blessing.

Shalom Boomer,

I have to apologize for the time it has taken to respond to you. I truly wanted to give you a response that was deserving of the importance of this issue. Substitutionalism is such a deceptive and difficult doctrine to overcome, it appears so right, and it is so appealing to the flesh for someone else to take the punishment for them.

You ask about the curse Yeshua was cursed with. This is not an easy issue to explain or understand. The most important aspect in understanding Yeshua being cursed, is to understand that His curse, resulted in us being blessed, for the curse that fell on Him, was turned into a blessing:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1>Nehemiah 13:1-2</font><HR><font color=blue>On that day they read in the book of Moshe in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that an `Ammonite and a Mo'avite should not enter into the assembly of Elohim forever, (2) because they didn't meet the children of Yisra'el with bread and with water, but hired Bil`am against them, to curse them: however our Elohim turned the curse into a blessing.</font color><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1>Acts 3:26</font><HR><font color=blue>"For you first, Elohim raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."</font color><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you see? The curse that fell on Him, resulted in us being blessed, in that we would be TURNED or DELIVERED out of our sin. Now, let's look at the mechanics of this curse that fell on Him. Who is responsible for this curse on Him? Isn't it those who placed Him up on the tree/cross? Those who crucified Him are the ones who cursed Him. Just who was that? You, me, and ALL sinners. We are the ones who cursed Him by sinning and lifting Him up on that tree/cross. I have already shown you that it was sin that crucified Yeshua (Hebrews 6:6), and He did not place Himself on that tree/cross, neither did He commit suicide, but we all participated in cursing Him by placing Him on that tree/cross. He was a willing participant, but we did the act. The knowledge of this is what truly gives power to overcome sin and be turned from it. Thus, the curse is turned into a blessing. This has nothing to do with someone dying in your stead and paying the penalty of your sin, but it IS all about Elohim blessing us when WE curse Him. Yeshua doesn't speak out of both sides of His mouth. He said to BLESS your enemies, and to do GOOD to those who mistreat you. He has done this. We mistreated Him, we were His enemy, and He is blessing us by TURNING us from that condition of being His enemy and mistreating Him.

To explain a little further, this curse is a result of Yeshua becoming ONE with ALL sinners, when He was lifted up on the tree/cross. In understanding this curse, and in understanding how Yeshua, who knew no sin, was made sin (2 Cor 5:21), you would do well to recognize that when Yeshua was lifted up on the tree/cross, ALL of mankind was drawn into His crucifixion:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1>John 12:32-33</font><HR><font color=blue>"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (33) But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death (crucifixion) by which He was to die.</font color><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Everyone was drawn INTO His death. He did not die in anyone's stead, everyone died WITH Him:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1>
2 Corinthians 5:14-16</font><HR><font color=blue>For the love of Messiah constrains us; because we judge thus, that one died for all, therefore all died. (15) He died for all, that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to him who for their sakes died and rose again. (16) Therefore we know no one after the flesh from now on. Even though we have known Messiah after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.</font color><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Paul did not look at ANYONE as living, ALL were dead IN Messiah, and he strove to help as many as possible to bury their dead bodies in baptism, and then to rise up into the ONLY ONE who was living. Get this firmly set in your mind. ALL died when Messiah died, therefore, Elohim is reconciled. This reconciliation isn't because the Prince or King was struck in our place, this reconciliation is because in Messiah, all sinners were put to death, they were drawn INTO the crucifixion and were made ONE with Messiah in His death. Just do a search of all the Scriptures in the NT about dead, die, crucified, etc. and you will see that it is very clear we were crucified with Messiah, and died with Him. We were joined to Him IN His death. So get it out of your thinking that Messiah died APART from sinners, in their stead, for we were right there being put to death with Him. He was the LIFE of ALL, so when He died, ALL life ceased to exist, at least on the plane or in the realm that matters.

Now, back to my questions for you. What is the mechanics of YOUR redemption from the curse? I think you tried to give me an answer, and it was along the lines of when you continue sinning in your life, Messiah applies His dying in your stead as a means to continue forgiving you. But I really wanted to you see how being redeemed from the curse of the law was a redemption from you being a sinner. Don't you agree that is the mechanics of your redemption? And finally, have you considered the explanation for Grace any further? I would really like if you could explain back to me my concept of Grace?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

[boomer]

IMaHebrew

Thanks for the reply. Up front, I will say that I disagree with your whole thought process on Yeshua being a curse. To begin with, your philosophy of using Nehemiah 13:12 to describe Yeshua’s death as a blessing is out of context. Nehemiah 13:1-2 is NOT even talking about the “curse” of the Torah! This verse is about a “curse” given to the Israelites from a pagan sorcerer named Balaam (Bilam). Please re-read this verse again.

Nehemiah 13:1-2 “On that day they read in the book of Moshe in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that an `Ammonite and a Mo'avite should not enter into the assembly of Elohim forever, (2) because they didn't meet the children of Yisra'el with bread and with water, but hired Bil`am against them, to curse them: however our Elohim turned the curse into a blessing.”

First of all, the name Balaam(Bilam) means "devourer of the people" . This was a prophetic sign that King Balak of Moab was trying to destroy Israel. Here we read Balak engaged the services of Balaam, a local sorcerer, to place a curse on Israel in order to eliminate the Israelite threat. Although Balaam understood that it would be improper to curse Adonai’s chosen people, he nevertheless was enticed by Balak's promises of rich rewards.

Balaam set out to accomplish this evil deed but was stopped by an invisible angel with a drawn sword blocking his path. While Balaam was blind to the sight of the angel, his donkey was not. In spite of repeated beatings, the donkey refused to continue the journey and sarcastically engaged Balaam in conversation, telling Balaam that his mission to curse the Israelites was not only doomed but would have the opposite effect. Thus Balaam, intending to curse the Israelites, instead advanced toward them with a blessing.

The “curse of the Torah”, unlike Balak, is a curse for breaking Torah. See Deut 27:26. When the Israelites broke Torah, they were under a curse. When they kept Torah they were blessed.

Your second comment of Yeshua being a curse is also out of context. This is what you said, “Do you see? The curse that fell on Him, resulted in us being blessed, in that we would be TURNED or DELIVERED out of our sin.” Here is the verse you quoted again:

Acts 3:26 "For you first, Elohim raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

This verse is not even about Yeshua’s death; it is about His life. Yeshua was a servant to Adonai and a prophet to the people. He kept Torah perfectly in a humble way. He lived His life as a “Servant” to Elohim. He served His whole life pleasing His father by doing and keeping His Torah. His whole life was a ministry and an example for us to serve Elohim our Adonai. He taught on the seashore of Galilee, He taught in the synagogues, He taught the wealthy, the poor, the righteous, the sinners, and He taught Torah by living it out. It is Yeshua life that teaches us to keep Torah as he was our tutor. We are to turn from our wicked ways by following His examples as a servant. It was His life as a servant that delivered us from sin and it was His death that delivered us from the punishment of death.

Your third comment of Yeshua being a curse is also out of context. John 12:32-33 is about the prophecy bronze serpent in the Tanakh.

John 12:32-33 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (33) But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Numbers 21:4-9 “So the people came to Moses and said, 'We have sinned, because we have spoken against YHVH and you, intercede with YHVH that He may remove the serpents from us.' And Moses interceded for the people. Then YHVH said to Moses, 'Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.' And Moses made a Bronze Serpent and set it on the standard. And it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the Bronze Serpent, he lived.”

Yeshua was the prophetic symbol of the bronze serpent and stake Moshe talked about. When Moshe “lifted up” the stake it symbolized that Yeshua would be “lifted up” on a stake (Etz). Numbers 21:4-9 supports the fact that Yeshua was an atoning offering in which if one believes and looks upon the cross, he will be saved from DEATH.

I will give you my thought on Grace in the next posting. Can you give me your thought on how the Yom Kippur sacrifice atoned Israel?

Boomer

[ImAHebrew]

Shalom Boomer,

I'm sorry that you disagree with my whole thought process. It appears that we are not on the same level of understanding. When I used the story of Bil'am to show how Elohim turned the curse into a blessing, I was not comparing Balak's desire to curse with the curse of the Torah, you misunderstood. The point was that Elohim TURNED the curse INTO a blessing.

Then you take the blessing and deny that it has anything to do with His death. Do you truly want to say that our redemption OUT of sin is not a result of His suffering and death? Please re-read this whole account of how you are blessed:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1>Acts 3:13-26</font><HR><font color=blue>The Elohim of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the Elohim of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Yeshua; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. (14) But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; (15) And killed the Prince of life, whom Elohim hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. (16) And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. (17) And now, brethren, I know that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. (18) But those things, which Elohim before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Messiah should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. (19) Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Master; (20) And he shall send Messiah Yeshua, which before was preached unto you: (21) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which Elohim hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall Yahweh Elohim raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. (23) And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. (24) Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. (25) Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which Elohim made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. (26) Unto you first Elohim, having raised up his Son Yeshua, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.</font color><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And this:<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1>Acts 2:22-23,36-39</font><HR><font color=blue>Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Yeshua of Nazareth, a man approved of Elohim among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which Elohim did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of Elohim, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain, (36) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that Elohim hath made that same Yeshua, whom ye have crucified, both Master and Messiah. (37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Messiah Yeshua for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as Yahweh our Elohim shall call.</font color><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Boomer, being saved OUT of sin, being blessed by TURNING from your iniquity, comes as a result of YOU being pricked in your heart by what you did to Yeshua. Your crucifying and murdering of Messiah Yeshua (by wicked hands) is turned into a blessing by Elohim. In your sin, you did nail Him to that tree, now repent, be converted, and allow the blessing of no longer living IN sin be upon you.

Now, why should I tell you what I know about the Atonement when you have not understood what I have said about the Blessing?

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

[boomer]

IMaHebrew,

Think about the "mechanics" of you thought process.

Adonai calls the punishment of breaking Torah a curse. He says when one keeps Torah they are blessed. Why would Adonai bless those for breaking Torah? Blessing a curse for breaking Torah in itself is against Torah. The truth of the matter is, Adonai simply atoned "covered" our curse (punishment). This is NOT turning a curse into a blessing. This is called "forgiveness" or "anulling" one's punishment with an undeserving sacrifice. Yeshua's death PAID the price of "Pesha" willful sin. His death was the same as the Yom Kippur sacrifice in which the animal's blood paid the price of Israel's sin for THAT YEAR. Yeshua's death did what bulls and goats could not do, that is, He death paid the price forever. In other words, it does not have to be done year after year.

Absolutely, Adonai desires repentance over sacrifice. However, if one breaks Torah he must be punished according to Torah. This is where Yeshua's sacrifice benefits us. He paid the price of our iniquities.

Absolutely, we should pierced to the heart of our Messiah's death. Why, because he gave us LIFE through His blood. As for keeping torah, the concept is not with Yeshua, but found in Torah. This was not a new teaching.

Define Yom Kippur? Does it mean a day of "Covering"? Do you even believe Yeshua was our Yom Kippur sacrifice?

Boomer