Messiah in the Torah and Talmud!

[PetriFB]

http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/Messiah_prophesies_Talmud

When it is a question of the coming of the Messiah, it is an interesting matter, with which is connected many prophecies.

We are indeed going to handle on the coming lines just this area, or prophecies, being connected with the coming of the Messiah. We are going to go through especially that, what in the Scriptures – the books of Moses, psalms and prophets - has been talked about the coming of the Messiah, the point of time of his coming, his life, his origin and about that, have these prophecies possibly already got their fulfilment. Therefore if you want to know prophesies of the Bible on this area, it is worth your while to read the next paragraphs.

But we will not restrict in our examination only to the writings of the Bible, but we will use also as help old commentaries of the rabbis (Midrash, Targum, Zohar, Talmud....), because in the current Jewishness they are valued very much. It is namely surprising, that from these old sources - especially from the oldest - can be found powerful Messiah-expectation and a description from over historical features of the Messiah in that way, which resembles mostly the message of the New Testament. One example of this Messiah-expectation, are at least the next couple sentences of the Talmud, in which is referred to that, how the prophets have prophesied only for the days of the Messiah:



"All prophets prophesies only for the days of the Messiah" (Sanhedrin 99a. p. 670).



"The world was created only for the Messiah." (Sanhedrin 98b. p. 667).



Before prophecies, which are connected with the Messiah, we are however going to examine a view of that, what kind of God is; in other words what the Scriptures teach about Him. For it is important to clarify this matter, because especially many people in the Middle East can have a wrong view of this matter.

[smadewell]

Yes, we have no Messiah.

The Talmud records that Hillel "maintained that there will be no Messiah for Yisrael, since they have already enjoyed him during the reign of Hezekiah" - (Sanhedrin 98b). Hillel is also noted as saying, "Be of the disciples of Aaron: loving peace and pursuing peace; loving people and bringing them close to the Torah" - (Pirke Avot 1:12).

I suggest that Hillel set out to spearhead a revlotuionary approach to the Messianic Ideal in Yisrael. I suggest that Yeshua was educated in a Hillelite plebeian school in the Galilee. I also suggest that Yeshua was a graduate of the Hillelite "School of the Prophets." If that be the case, then we really need to look to these plebeian proto-rabbinic sages and their understanding of the Messianic Ideal. In so doing, we will better comprehend Yeshua's understanding of his role in the greater scheme of things. I don't think we can minimize the impact that Hillel had on his disciples and the heirs of his teachings and ideals.

The sect known as the Pharisees (Separatists) had its origins in the ancient Chasidim (Pious Ones), who resisted the Hellenizing campaign of Antiochus IV of Syria. These ancient Chasidim used their zeal for the Torah and their apocalyptic literary impulse to move the masses to support a priest named Mattathias and his five sons in liberating the Holy Land and purifying the Temple. This would be the Hasmonean Revolt that one reads about in the Book of Maccabees.

As a result of their success, and to make a long story short, for a time there were members of this family that served as both the King of Judea and the High Priest of the Temple in Jerusalem. This was a very interesting Messianic combination indeed! Alas, this family was plagued by all the troubles that political intrigue can bring.

In short, the ancient Chasidim, and the sect of the Pharisee that arose from it, were disillusioned in the extreme. The came off their Hasmonean high only to be subjected to the cold, harsh reality of again becoming a vassal state to a foreign power that brought in its wake all the Hellenizing influences they had sought to expunge from the Holy Land.

Hillel is said to have been a scion of King David and is reported as having grown up in Babylon during the death-throws of the Hasmonean Dynasty. If we are to understand how the plebeian disciples of Hillel approached the Messianic Ideal, then we're going to have to review the pseudoepigraphic literature they drew upon and their understanding of the Messiah as recorded in the rabbinic literature. Why? Because in so doing we will see just how revolutionary and yet how conservative their conclusions were.

The leaders and teachers of the Separatists and Pious Ones were forced to re-evaluate the Sacred Text and the apocalyptic literature that had been used to create the Messianic fervor that had energized the Hasmonean Revolt. In short, they rolled up their sleeves and took another look at this Messianic Ideal and tried to come up with a way of making it work. But how? Trust a man to be your king and he'll end up screwing things up for sure. On that score, they knew history repeated itself all too often. So, they asked, "What does YHVH want of his people?"

To be continued....

[Menachem]

http://koti.phnet.fi/elohim/Messiah_prophesies_Talmud

When it is a question of the coming of the Messiah, it is an interesting matter, with which is connected many prophecies.

We are indeed going to handle on the coming lines just this area, or prophecies, being connected with the coming of the Messiah. We are going to go through especially that, what in the Scriptures – the books of Moses, psalms and prophets - has been talked about the coming of the Messiah, the point of time of his coming, his life, his origin and about that, have these prophecies possibly already got their fulfilment. Therefore if you want to know prophesies of the Bible on this area, it is worth your while to read the next paragraphs.

But we will not restrict in our examination only to the writings of the Bible, but we will use also as help old commentaries of the rabbis (Midrash, Targum, Zohar, Talmud....), because in the current Jewishness they are valued very much. It is namely surprising, that from these old sources - especially from the oldest - can be found powerful Messiah-expectation and a description from over historical features of the Messiah in that way, which resembles mostly the message of the New Testament. One example of this Messiah-expectation, are at least the next couple sentences of the Talmud, in which is referred to that, how the prophets have prophesied only for the days of the Messiah:



"All prophets prophesies only for the days of the Messiah" (Sanhedrin 99a. p. 670).



"The world was created only for the Messiah." (Sanhedrin 98b. p. 667).



Before prophecies, which are connected with the Messiah, we are however going to examine a view of that, what kind of God is; in other words what the Scriptures teach about Him. For it is important to clarify this matter, because especially many people in the Middle East can have a wrong view of this matter.

One thing must be clear is that none of these Rabbi's believed in jesus. so any reference to the Moshiach in the Talmud is simply a reference to the coming Melekh ha'Moshiach who will fulfill the messianic prophecies laid out in the tanakh. It is safe to say that the application of these references to jesus is not only incorrect but futile at that since every thing we know about the Moshiach from the Talmud and Tanakh sings a different tune than what christianity says about the messiah.

[smadewell]

THE WAR THAT SHOULDN'T BE!

I have to agree with Menachem's intent, but not his methodology, though I'm always open to correction and respect his scholarship and command of the language.

Here's my take on this Counter-Missionary vs. Missionary war that's going on between the Jews for Judaism and the Jews for Jesus crowd.

The historical Yeshua has been a slave of the Gentiles too long. It's time his own people redeemed him from his captivity, IMO. Some Orthodox Jewish scholars have sought to do just that without marginalizing the historical man and without writing him off as "something for the Gentiles."

Yes, the Church's Replacement Theology is wrong. Yes, the Messianics are wrong, because they're doing little more than "playing at being Jewish." I've stated this many times and on many forums. Oh, the Messianics will look down their nose at those bicycle riding Jehovah Witnesses that go door-to-door seeking converts, but they'll think nothing of doing the same thing in Jewish neighborhoods and using the same tactics to gain Jewish converts to Christianity. And you wonder why the Jews for Judaism dispise the Jews for Jesus? Wake up and smell the coffee! Yes, I'm generalizing here and there are exceptions to these blanket statements of mine.

Further, the Messianics are advancing the same dogmatic bromide the Gentiles have been espousing since they bought into the lies of Shaul's proto-Gnostic opponents, who laid the foundation for the Ecclesiastical Church and Christian Gnosticism. Shaul's another hopelessly misunderstood personality.

Instead of thumping and bashing each other the Church and the Synagogue ought to be co-working partners with the Divine in the Creation in as much as this universe is our Patrimony. Both sides ought to be subjugating their own Evil Impulse. The Church should stop trying to convert the Jews and both the Church and the Synagogue ought to stop perverting and misrepresenting the teachings of the historical Yeshua.

It's time both sides in this war took a fresh look at the historical man and gave his teachers their proper respect, because he wasn't born in a cultural vacuum!

Do you Christians and Messianics not see the sin you've committed in forcing counter-missionaries like Menachem to waste their time on such defensive matters and offensive tactics? Shame! Do you not see the sin in enslaving the historical man in the chains of the Chruch's dogmatism? Hasn't anyone stopped to think that mabye, just maybe, Yeshua's movement and teachings were subverted early on, like so many other religious figures and spiritual teachers? Has anyone ever thought to examine that?

The cult of personality is a very powerful thing. Even Rebbe Schneerson has fallen victim to messianic claims. What is it with this messianic obsession? Stop looking for a messiah and start fulfilling the Sinaic Ideal if you're a Jew and if you're not a Jew, then look to the Jews who are fulfilling the Sinaic Ideal and learn from them and seek in absolute humility to share in the spiritual Commonwealth of Yisrael. Let's work together to advance the Kingdom of Heaven and pursue peace.

Why can't we just get along!? Both sides are driving me insane!

"We are the origins of war. Not history’s forces nor the times nor justice nor the lack of it nor causes nor religions nor ideas nor kinds of government nor any other thing! We are the killers; we breed war. We carry it, like syphilis, inside. Dead bodies rot in field and stream because the living ones are rotten. For the love of God, can’t we love one another just a little? That’s how peace begins. We have so much to love each other for. We have such possibilities, my children; we could change the world." - Eleanor of Aquitaine (played by Katharine Hepburn) in The Lion in Winter (1968)

:heavy sigh: I don't know why I even bother. It seems people aren't happy unless they're fighting each other. Thumping and bashing.... That's a pretty sad legacy to leave one's offspring and the world as a whole.

[smadewell]

Must Jews Become Christians?

MUST JEWS BECOME CHRISTIANS? by David Blewett

Pay special attention to the paragraphs titled JESUS THE JEW and FOCUS OF A MAJOR DISPUTE.

Blewett needs correcting on a few points, but for the most part he's got the gist of things.

In the paragraph titled, RABBINIC JUDAISM AND CHRISTIANITY DEVELOPED AT THE SAME TIME, Blewett writes, "Bet Shammai disappeared when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple in 70. Bet Hillel, because it was more accommodating and not a threat to the Romans, was allowed to relocate at Yavneh, where they began to develop into what we know today as Rabbinic Judaism."

Bet Shammai didn't disappear, but their influence was greatly lessened, first, by the impact of the First Jewish Revolt on the wealth of their Patrician members and secondly, due to the Heavenly Voice, which stated Bet Hillel's halakhot (religio-legal rulings) would take precendent in this world and Bet Shammai's in the World to Come (i.e., when people actually had the leisure time to "go the extra mile" in their observance, so to speak). Shammaites were still around after the destruction of the Temple.

[ZeevBenyamin]

It is true that nothing mentioned in the Talmud deals with the rabbi from Nazareth.
It is true that all that is the Jewish Bible deals nothing with the rabbi from Nazareth as any kind of redeeming Mashiach.

However, as smadewell has stated, nothing in Torah or Talmud speaks against him for he himself endorsed all that bet hillel taught along with the ideals of Hillel the elder's first colleague, Menachem the essene and his students.

I also share the opinion that the gentiles have swallowed him up for long enough as they have done with the Jewish people for millenia. And the first way to repair this breach is for us to restore him and his ideas to its proper place in Judaism; not as the Mashiach as purported by Xtianity, but as a rabbi who wanted to actualize the messianic age in his day...and if it did happen in his day, he could've been one of the two messiah's.
All that could be said about him is that he was a messiah in his age as there are ben David's and ben Yosefs in every generation. And what he taught is a tool to actualize the messianic age in our age. And it is my opinion that his teachings will actualize the actual ben yosef.