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**hyssop** · 12-18-2002, 07:44 AM

The scripture that you quoted states that Yashua became "sin for us" so that "we might become the righteousness of G-d."

What, exactly, is the righteousness of G-d? And, how is that accomplished by having someone punished in your place?

**Matthew23** · 12-20-2002, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by hyssop
What, exactly, is the righteousness of G-d?

The righteousness of God is that which is acceptable to Him; that which is in good standing with Him.

And, how is that accomplished by having someone punished in your place? [/B]

Haven't we been through that already?

Go ahead...

**hyssop** · 12-21-2002, 10:49 AM

Matt,

Your first definition, "that which is acceptable to Him," is very close; your second, "that which is in good standing with Him," is not . . . and that's why you can read 2 Cor 5:21 and misunderstand it to mean that "Yashua died in my stead."

Please let me explain: Your second definition is the definition of righteous, not righteousness. The righteous are in good standing with our Heavenly Father. And, why are they in good standing with Him? Because they have performed righteousness: "that which is acceptable to Him." Do you see the difference? It's a fine line but, nevertheless, very important to understand before one can accurately interpret what is being said.

Righteousness = that which is acceptable to Him. Fundamentally, Yahweh's commandments define what is acceptable to Him.<BLOCKQUOTE>Psalms 119:172 KJV<HR>My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.<HR></blockquote>This is at least the third time that I've quoted this scripture in this thread (although, the last time was 6 months ago

).

Matt, I just went back and read some of this thread over again, and one of your comments really stood out:<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Matthew23<HR>I'm sorry. Maybe it's because this "doctrine" is new to me, but it seems very twisted. I'm still not clear if you believe that the sinner is made righteous by observing the law, or if you believe that the sinner is made righteous by grace through faith in J-sus.<HR></blockquote>"the sinner is made righteous by observing the law" -

Yes, this is true. One who performs Yahweh's law has righteousness.<BLOCKQUOTE>Ezek 18 KJV<HR>[21] But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. [22] All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.<HR></blockquote>When one physically performs the law, they have a "physical" righteousness.

"the sinner is made righteous by grace through faith in J-sus" -

Yes, this is true. This righteousness, however, is not a "physical" righteousness. It is a "spiritual" righteousness: the righteousness of G-d. Now, REMEMBER: righteousness is Yahweh's commandments. So, how do we have a free gift (grace) of righteousness (keeping Yahweh's commandments) through faith in J-sus?<BLOCKQUOTE>1 Cor 5:7 KJV<HR>Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Chr-st our passover is sacrificed for us:<HR></blockquote>Yashua was your sacrifice, my sacrifice. And, that is something we accept through faith. What did we have to do to bring this sacrifice? NOTHING! It was a free gift (grace) of Yahweh. All we had to do was be ourselves: sinners. When we sinned, we were participating in the death of Yashua--we were accomplishing our "spiritual" sacrifice. If you accept this through faith, you have the righteouness of G-d: a keeping of His commandments at the "next level."

Enough said for now . . .

**Matthew23** · 12-21-2002, 12:05 PM

Let's say that I broke one of YHWH's commandments today. Now I am unrighteous. In order for me to become the righteousness of God, what do I need to do? I sinned and now I am unrighteous. Do I remain unrighteous forever?

**hyssop** · 12-21-2002, 03:58 PM

I don't believe that this is a hypothetical issue. You have already admitted that you practice unrighteousness (the breaking of Yahweh's commandments) without thinking twice about it.

When you perform this sin, you are participating in Yashua's death (he died because of your sin). You are as responsible for his death as those who nailed him to the cross; there is no difference. His spilled blood is on your hands.

When/if you finally realize that your unrighteousness killed Yashua, then you are at the threshold of the "Righteousness of G-d." It was Yashua's purpose to die for you; not in your stead but, rather, to give you the opportunity to bring a sacrifice for your sins. This sacrifice is Yashua. You sacrificed Yashua in exact accordance with the scriptures. You brought the Passover Lamb on the 14th day of the first month [Ex 12:6 - John 19:14]; you washed his inwards and his legs in water [Lev 1:9 - John 19:34]. YOU DID IT!

Now, if you brought this sacrifice, what does that mean?

It means that you have performed Yahweh's command to bring a sacrifice for your sin. You have performed righteousness (and you didn't even know it). It is grace, a totally free gift. It is the gift of G-d.

**Thummim** · 12-22-2002, 12:34 PM

Sin without sacrifice?

Matthew23 writes;

Let's say that I broke one of YHWH's commandments today. Now I am unrighteous. In order for me to become the righteousness of God, what do I need to do? I sinned and now I am unrighteous. Do I remain unrighteous forever?

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...Can I assume that this hypothetical sin of yours, is deliberate? An unintended sin can be handled by the priests. But deliberate sin is YHWH's sole domain. He is the offended party and he alone can forgive the transgression.

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29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 29 - 31

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...So a deliberate sin will require the participation of YHWH, as in the following text.

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22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isa. 44: 22

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...As to a pascel lamb being used for a sin offering, all sin offerings are required with the slaughter of the lamb. It covers no sin.

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16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of YHWH.

17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.

18 In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein:

19 But ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto YHWH; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish:

20 And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram;

21 A several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs:

22 And one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you.

23 Ye shall offer these beside the burnt offering in the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering.

24 After this manner ye shall offer daily, throughout the seven days, the meat of the sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto YHWH: it shall be offered beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

25 And on the seventh day ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work. Nu. 28: 16 - 25

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...The pascel lamb is not for sin. Unintentional sin is addressed separately. Intentional sin again requires YHWH's personal attention. If "Jesus" is a pascel lamb, it would still yeild no absolution from intentional sin. All sin offerings would still be required since they are not for individual indiscretions. The sin offerings are for Israel's cleansing, and not for your sin personally. Your asked to have a contrite heart.

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15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16 For thou desirest not sacrifice {for intentional sin?}; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Ps. 51: 15 - 17

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...The solution then must be repentance for intentional sin. If you also defile Israel {the people and the land} through your transgressions, the priests can deal with them through the Levitical code. But your own sin is yours and YHWH's to deal with. YHWH does not stay angry forever.

22 Thus saith thy Lord YHWH, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:

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...This sentiment would go with YHWH never again being angry with his people {Isa. 54: 9}, him being convinced that they are righteous by his own act. {in this time}

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25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Isa. 43: 25

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...Being JEWish and being forgiven by YHWH, or being forgiven by the new faith of christianity {in its many forms} are very different things. YHWH is a savior to the JEWish people, but christianity and the name of "Jesus" hasn't ended in the JEWish people being declared righteous, though YHWH does make this declaration himself. Christianities declaration is one of oppression for the JEWish people.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

...This is what christianity declares for the end of those who are JEWish and do not worship "Jesus". And this is what became of this righteous people in the hands of christianity. Accused of killing the messiah, the son of GD and "GD manifested in the flesh", {can a people be accused of greater evil?} the JEWish people couldn't escape their fate. But you will no doubt find YHWH a more just Eloheem in dealing with your own sin. {sacrifice not required!} Paul could be completely wrong in his assessment of "Jesus". He could be guilty of fashioning "Jesus" into an idol of flesh that the world worships in the place of YHWH.

....Michael

**Thummim** · 12-22-2002, 02:03 PM

What is righteousness?

...Matthew 23, the question of a mans righteousness is a deeper question that it at first seems. What is righteousness anyway? Can we personally achieve righteousness without it being a grant given to us by YHWH? Can a man be righteous for his own sake? I can be known of my peers, to be a righteous man for my dealings with them. But would this add to my righteousness that YHWH decrees to me for meeting his will?

...We have to ask, "whose standard of righteousness are we talking about?" You could be righteous to me, and at the same time be unrighteous to YHWH. {or it could be reversed} Why do I {or you} need to be righteous at all? I assume that I want something in return for my righteousness. What do I want for the walls that I fence in my life with? Righteousness will require something of me. At first, I assume that I want to please YHWH. But why. What is it that I want of him? {everlasting life, inclusion in his peoples, honor?} Righteousness then must infer some kind of a contract. {I will, so I can ...}

...Matthew23, what is righteousness to bring to you? What do you want? Is it to be a part of the JEWish people? Maybe to be a good christian? Maybe it is soly pleasing YHWH that you want. If YHWH asked of you to distroy his enemies, man, woman and child, would this now be righteousness to you? Saul was given such a view of righteousness. He did the killing, but insisted on plundering. For killing, he was righteous, but for plundering, he gave away his own righteousness with YHWH. I assume that we must all have our own righteousness within us. It seems that "Jesus" said something like "blessed is the man who does not hold himself guilty in the thing that he allows". I cannot remember exactly what was said, or where. But it seems very valid. Perhaps we at first must find righteousness within our own hearts. But then aren't we really judging YHWH's righteousness, to do so?

...So asking whether you are unrighteous {or righteous} forever, must concern who is the judge of that righteousness. I may not be totally at peace with YHWH judging my righteousness for me. Killing children is my chief revulsion to war. But killing Moslem children can save the lives of JEWish children {or American children}, if there is really are weapons of mass destruction in the hands of ...(xxx). What is righteousness is not always easy to determine. It could be the domain of the gods {if we allow it to be}. But we ourselves along with our children, have to live with the consequences of allowing the gods to determine our righteousness.

...I'll bet that you are a very righteous man of great conscience. You probably are very good at determining righteousness. So are you a righteous man in your own judgement? There is a curse that lays upon the righteous. Because they care, they sometimes cannot forgive themselves of their past transgressions. The unrighteous, have no problem here.

....Michael

**hyssop** · 12-22-2002, 11:32 PM

Yahweh's commandments are righteousness.

If one does what Yahweh commands, he is righteous; if one does not, then he is unrighteous.

Very simple.

**Matthew23** · 12-23-2002, 01:00 AM

Hyssop,

If I do what YHWH commands, I am righteous; and if I sin, I am made righteous through Yeshua's sacrifice. Is this what you believe?

I can dig that!

I don't get how that explains the whole substitution issue though. I mean, yes, through my sin, I did kill Yeshua. I believe that. But how can you say that he didn't die in my place. I deserved to die for my sins, right? Am I missing something?

**Matthew23** · 12-23-2002, 01:03 AM

Thummim, I'm not ignoring you...
It's late and I need to hit the sack. I just wanted to get a quick reply in to Hyssop. I'll check into your replies soon.

**Thummim** · 12-23-2002, 12:38 PM

The fruits of righteousness?

Hyssop writes;

Yahweh's commandments are righteousness.

If one does what Yahweh commands, he is righteous; if one does not, then he is unrighteous.

Very simple.

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...But is it? The text of the tanakh teaches us that there are those prophets that do not say what YHWH says to say. YHWH himself claims that there are prophets that do not speak his words. If these false prophets write down their words, do we know that they are always underscoring YHWH's will? When a prophet speaks, don't we have to test him in some way? How do we know that a prophets words, are YHWH's words? We are told that if a prophet speaks, but his words do not come true, he is not the prophet of YHWH. I can bring this test to two separate prophets of the tanakh and void their words by this test. Both Isaiah and Haggai appear to be in breach of preaching the words of YHWH, by this test. Take away the words of Isaiah from christianity, and there is no christian faith. Isaiah cedes righteousness to the JEWish people that is rejected by the teachings of christianity. But the words of Isaiah are suitable for christians to build there own righteousness upon. What seems wrong with this? Could it be that Isaiah is a JEW who writes his words for his own people's blessing? If christianity takes their blessing from Isaiah's words, but denighs the blessing of Israel, does it become apparient who the thieves are?

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17 But Israel shall be saved in the with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isa. 45: 17

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...This verse of text is in the same paragraph as Isa. 45: 1, where Cyrus is named messiah. He releases the people of YHWH from their captivity with an everlasting salvation according to the prophet's words. Was Israel's salvation an everlasting salvation? All JEWs are said to be righteous by YHWH's own words. {Isa. 44: 22} But neither christianity, nor "Jesus" teaches this. Is the teacher {"Jesus"} false, or is the prophet {Isaiah} false? Are both false and not speaking YHWH's words?

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18 Consider now from this day and upward, from the four and twentieth day of the ninth month, even from the day that the foundation of YHWH'S temple was laid, consider it.

19 Is the seed yet in the barn? yea, as yet the vine, and the fig tree, and the pomegranate, and the olive tree, hath not brought forth: from this day will I bless you. Hag. 2: 18, 19

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...Yeah? A perpetual blessing for Israel. {dated!} This is the faith of both these prophets. Israel is forever pardoned and righteous, according to their teachings.

...So do we throw out the words of both these prophets? I could go through the NT and the tanakh, and throw out much of both works by this test. I would suggest that we all test righteousness by our own judgement. What YHWH seems to say, just might not be what YHWH really says.

...These things are important to think about. Dare I go any further? We may not have the permissions that we think we do. If righteousness is not in the texts of the sacred books, {by test} then we may just end up being tested ourselves, by what is in our own hearts. Do you cede to the JEWish people, the righteousness that their prophets give them through their words?

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8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith YHWH thy Redeemer.

9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith YHWH that hath mercy on thee. Isa. 54: 8 - 10

....Michael

**hyssop** · 01-01-2003, 09:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Matthew23<HR>If I do what YHWH commands, I am righteous; and if I sin, I am made righteous through Yeshua's sacrifice. Is this what you believe?

I can dig that!

<HR></blockquote>Yes, Matt. That's what I believe. And that's what I think Paul meant when he said,<BLOCKQUOTE>Gal 2:17 KJV<HR>But if, while we seek to be justified by Chr_st, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Chr_st the minister of sin? G_d forbid.<HR></blockquote>When we are justified (declared righteous) through Y'shua, we have to admit that we killed him and brought him as our sacrifice when we sinned.

One could say, "Great! Then I can do whatever I want. I'll get spiritual righteousness by sinning." And what did Paul say to that logic? "Is Chr_st the minister of sin? Absolutely not." Because when we realize that our sin (breaking Hashem's commandments) crucified the Messiah, we should repent (change) and move away from sin. Look at what the writer of Romans said was being reported of the Apostles:<BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 3:8 KJV<HR>And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.<HR></blockquote>Do you see how the message of grace (Hashem's gift of righteousness through the death of Y'shua) fits this slanderous twisting of what was being said?

Now, what about the substitutional death of Y'shua? It's a false message! Think about it. What father would punish his good child as a substitute for his wicked children?

And . . . if you understand how Y'shua's death gives you righteousness and you turn from your sin, our Heavenly Father will forgive you. Your old self died with Y'shua. You now repent, are baptized, and live as a new creature in Him.

So . . . what does it mean when the scripture says, "Y'shua died for us"? Think of this in terms of warfare. When a soldier dies for his country, is he paying their penalty for sin? Of course not. He lays his life down so that his fellow countrymen may live. This is how Y'shua died for us. We know there is a spiritual war taking place between our Creator and those spirit beings that are His enemies--our enemies. Y'shua died in order to deliver us from our slavery to sin.

I know that our message is not always easy to follow, but I pray that you see Satan's lie. The Deceiver has convinced the world that it can continue in sin and still be right with Hashem. This is just not so.

Peace,

**Matthew23** · 01-02-2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by hyssop
Now, what about the substitutional death of Y'shua? It's a false message! Think about it. What father would punish his good child as a substitute for his wicked children?

For G-d so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And . . . if you understand how Y'shua's death gives you righteousness and you turn from your sin, our Heavenly Father will forgive you. Your old self died with Y'shua. You now repent, are baptized, and live as a new creature in Him.

agreed

So . . . what does it mean when the scripture says, "Y'shua died for us"? Think of this in terms of warfare. When a soldier dies for his country, is he paying their penalty for sin? Of course not. He lays his life down so that his fellow countrymen may live. This is how Y'shua died for us. We know there is a spiritual war taking place between our Creator and those spirit beings that are His enemies--our enemies. Y'shua died in order to deliver us from our slavery to sin.

I know that our message is not always easy to follow, but I pray that you see Satan's lie. The Deceiver has convinced the world that it can continue in sin and still be right with Hashem. This is just not so.

...the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many.

If you don't mind me asking, who taught you what you believe?

**Thummim** · 01-02-2003, 03:13 PM

Addendem to righteousness.

Who is righteous?

...When a sinners sin is remitted by YHWH, we do not get to say that the sin never happened. But when YHWH forgives the sin, he has covered unrighteousness, with righteousness. The righteous do not benefit from this act. But righteousness can bring into the same esteem the sinner, as it does the righteous person. The righteousness of YHWH's people, is a choice of YHWH's.

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25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. Isa. 43: 25

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...Righteousness here is an act of YHWH's. For his own sake, he has made his people righteous. How many sinners are covered in this decree of YHWH's, and for how long? I'm trying to show you that righteousness can cover the unrighteous. Moses dies a sinner, unforgiven by his GD, and left on the wrong side of the Jordon river. But he is still a righteous man. A sinner can be righteous! This is a very hard lesson for people to learn. All Israel is righteous! That is the cover of a GD who himself makes his people righteous.

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23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. {swear what?}

24 Surely, shall one say, in YHWH have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25 In YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be "justified" {"tzadek in hebrew" = righteous, and shall glory. Isaiah further goes on to say that this righteousness means that YHWH will never again be angry with his people.

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9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. {as of Isa. 44: 22}

10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed --> {these mountains and hills underline forever!}; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith YHWH that hath mercy on thee. Isa. 54: 9, 10

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...So what is removed? Though peace leaves the people of Israel, it must not be by YHWH's will. It might be by a loss in the strength of YHWH's name, to cover his people. This name is Davids strength to defeat his enemies.

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10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH will I destroy them.

11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of YHWH I will destroy them.

12 They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of YHWH I will destroy them. Ps. 118: 10 - 12

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...It is so hard, to get people to see that this Eloheem is not as any other. He is worshipped through his name. He belongs to the people who live in the line of "Shem --> the Name", son of Noah. The authors of the tanakh made a Name for their Eloheem, and for themselves. He {YHWH} is no "Object or idol". His worship is unique in all the world. All other Eloheem are objects "things". But YHWH is a Name! It is also this peoples Name of righteousness. This is the blessing of Israel, "the linking of Names".

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27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Nu. 6: 26

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...and without this link in "Names", there is no blessing given according to Malachi.

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1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.

2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith YHWH of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it. Mal. 2: 1 - 3

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...So a people trapped by forgetfulness can still be righteous. They need the blessing that is in the name of their Eloheem.

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7 Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.

8 Our help is in the name of YHWH, who made heaven and earth. Ps. 124: 7, 8

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...Escape from this trap is as easy as learning the Name of YHWH. It is not the "Lord" that is this peoples righteousness. It is YHWH! In YHWH, all of Israel have righteousness weither they sin or not. But I do not mean to say that it is OK to sin. It is not. The righteousness of this people does not come from themselves. It comes from their Eloheem. Studing talmud all day long will not make righteousness for this people. {but it might help} But the Name of YHWH {in the will of YHWH}, does make a righteous people.

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Psalm 20

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.

1 YHWH hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;

2 Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;

3 Remember all thy offerings, and accept thy burnt sacrifice; Selah.

4 Grant thee according to thine own heart, and fulfil all thy counsel.

5 We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: --> *the letters {YHWH} come from the Name of "YaHudaH", the root of "Jesse"* YHWH fulfil all thy petitions. {see Ps. 89: 24, Isa. 11: 10 and make the connection to the Name of YHWH}

6 Now know I that YHWH saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with {"his Name"} = >> the saving strength of his right hand.

7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of YHWH our God. {???}

8 They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright.

9 Save, YHWH: let the king hear us when we call. Ps. 20

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...GD and Hashem are different ideas and very different ways of worshipping an Eloheem. One can be attached to a Name, but not to an idol. YHWH can take his people to himself through his Name. He can be YHWH, their righteousness.

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17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. {because of his name} This is the heritage {Name} of the servants of YHWH, and their righteousness is of me, saith YHWH.

....Michael

**hyssop** · 01-10-2003, 07:51 AM

Matt,

Please accept my apology for the long-delayed response. I will post a detailed response this weekend. In the mean time, I'd like you to consider the following:

Your quote: "...the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many." is a very good point.

What I would like you to think about is:
"From what did Y'shua ransom us?"
"Who did we owe?" "For what?"
"Who did He pay?" "With what?"

And, lastly: Can you find Biblical support for your views? For example -- if you believe that Y'shua died in your place to pay the penalty for your sin, find a number of compelling examples in the Hebrew scriptures that support substitutional punishment.

I'll be back soon,

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