Forgiveness of Sin

[Valid Name]

Greetings all,

HA! I'm back. My split personality has finally split, and I am now Searching and Valid Name. It's good to get those two separated...not a lot of room in this tiny head.

So, by the way Hyssop, the tzaddikim board does not like Mr. Searching. Apparently he has been abusing it, what ever it is, he won't tell me.

So on to Valid's first thread:

What Does is take for YHWY to forgive sin? WHAT does he look for? Will a sacrifice alone do it? Can one sacrifice and sacrifice until his hands bleed making goats bleed?

Peace,
Valid Name

[ROVIVRUS]

Hello Valid (Searching, Scarlet),

I am interested in exploring this topic of forgiveness. You asked what kinds of things must be done in order for God to forgive. I have learned that before such a question can be answered, one must define forgiveness.

When God grants forgiveness, is God granting it for the one who has sinned or for the one who has been sinned upon?

What are your thoughts?

Peace,
Rovivrus2

[Thummim]

Salvation from an enemy.

...Valad, sacrifice does nothing for intentional sin.

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25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto YHWH, and their sin offering before YHWH, for their ignorance:

26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.

27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before YHWH, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 25 - 31

...Those who sin deliberately, need an act of YHWH's, like that accounted for in Mi. 7: 19. Neither does a pascel lamb bring any frogiveness of sin. YHWH forgives his people of their transgressions, whiched they have sinned against him, when he is ready to do so.

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19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea. Mi. 7: 19

...In the tanakh, salvation always has an enemy to be saved from. It takes on new meaning when X - tians set up their tables at the gates of heaven, to charge their fee, and refuse entry to most JEWs. {-succumbing to the name of "Jesus", is the price charged by the faith of Rome, to whom the NT belongs.} The salvation of christianity is more like the forgiveness of ones sins, then the salvation that YHWH grants his people in the tanakh. {salvation from an enemy} The greatest cost of forgiveness from YHWH, {as opposed to salvation from an enemy} is repentance, and a change of heart. Such forgiveness of sin belongs to Israel through Isa. 44: 22.

Jesus cannot "save" as an "offering made for sin", {because intentional sin is not forgiven by any offering} and he cannot save as a pascel lamb because {all sin offerings are still required with the slain lamb - see Nu. 28: 16 - 25}. Isa. 53 requires the fruits of intersession. {the vindication of the people of Isaiah} This Jesus did not deliver to them. What Isaiah awaits, in delivering his people from the rebuke of this world, which christianity fathered against them, is for the name of YHWH {GD's glory} to rise upon his people and end the rebuke of those accused of killing christianities messiah. {Isa. 60: 1 - 3} Until recently, the JEWish people were only in danger when caught dwelling in christian nations. Until the Israeli nation came into existance, the moslem people actually had a good record in how they treated JEWs.

...Now how do we save the JEWish people from christianity? We wrap them in the name of their Eloheem. That is salvation from an enemy.

....Michael

[Valid Name]

Where have all the hippies gone?

Greetings Rovivorus and Micheal,

Glad to see you over here Rovivorus. There is much I have yet to learn, however a question such as yours is a good one, because it can help me to teach myself as I attempt to teach others.

I will answer your question in which I will run off of Micheal's post, because he brought up a key issue in understanding the forgiveness that the Father grants us.

You felt we should first define forgiveness. As a biblical definition, I would say it would be acting as though one had never sinned:

Ezekial 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.

16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

I know of this scripture and others that speak of not mentioning or remembering the sins of the wicked if they turn and do what is right.

However forgiveness I believe (I might be missing something) will only be given to he who sins. He who is sinned upon, unfortuantly gets the grunt of the work. He who sins however, if he is to be forgiven, I am most sure that he reaps that pain he sows.

True repentance is a difficult thing, and will break the heart of anyone.

An example in Acts 2, where a select group learn that they have murdered the Messiah:

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Once these people learned that their sin had killed Messiah, they were deeply sorrowful, and had their hearts pricked or broken.

Then then asked "what can we do?" The answer was repent or quit sinning. One will not be forgiven for continuing in their sin (deliberatly).

And Thummim, I completely agree that One's who sins purposefully will not be forgiven. That is not to say 'forgiven' is in a 'forever' sense, but a sense of 'when they return to their former state of 'walk with the Father'.

A sacrifice itself is no sufficient for a 'siner'. The blood falls, the creature dies, the one who brought the sacrifice, may stay the same. The Father is a spirit, who is bound not by the physical elements of this world. He searches the heart, the thought, for the love.

Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

When the Father sees no repentance, and 'I will sin more' additude, how should he forgive? Because the sinner killed and innocent animal?

The Father requires one thing:

Psalm 32:5 I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

If one does not have these which produce Love and are Love, all the heifers, flour, turtledoves and salt in the world will do no good. All the works in the world are not acceptable without Love of The Father.

Then again, The Father may do whatever he wishes.

I do disagree about the enemy.

The only enemy is sin.

I will in no way refuse you a seat for salvation Micheal. How is your conscience? I would believe it is not to the left or right.

One day all:

Isaiah22:45 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

24 They will say of me, 'In the Lord alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

The Father will not burn you nor anyone else for an eternity. Perhaps we may be burnt abit in our discussions, but what else are we here for?

Forgive, and you shall be forgiven.

Love is Forgiveness.

Peace.

Sincerely,
Valid Name

[Thummim]

...Valad, you most read these verses in context with all things written by the prophet Isaiah. There is an enemy that the nations of Israel have escaped from. Always search for the enemy. Salvation here is not of souls, but of lives. Go back two paragraphs, and Cyrus is named. What is sworn with bowed knee, is that Israel is now righteous. It goes with Isa. 44: 22, 23.

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19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I YHWH speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I YHWH? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. {Israel is scattered to the ends of the earth, **Isa. 43: 5 - 7**}

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. {of their righteousness}

24 Surely, shall one say, in YHWH have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25 In YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be {justified --> "tzadek = made righteous"}, and shall glory.

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22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

23 Sing, O ye heavens; for YHWH hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for YHWH hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. {the righteous ones!} Isa. 44: 22, 23

...On "fulfilling" the law, it is impossible for "Jesus" to manage it for the reasons that I listed in my last post. No one can gain any remission of sin through anything that "Jesus" did. Remission of sin does not belong to the law, but rather to a broken spirit, and a broken and contrite heart. Neither is there any remission of sin that comes through the slaughter of a pascel lamb. These "X - tian ideas are completely bogus.


15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. Isa. 57: 15

...One needs the right state of heart.

....Michael

[ROVIVRUS]

Hello Valid and Thummin,

It is my opinion that forgiveness has nothing to do with repentance. I know that sounds a little “out there”, but I am specifically speaking about the forgiveness from one person to another. And I’m not sure about what God’s plan of action is. I do feel that getting to a point where a certain form of sin is no longer mentioned, is indeed for the benefit of the person who is sinned upon and not for the sinner. I don’t feel that God intends for us to forget anything. And I don’t think that God forgets anything either. Also, getting to a point where it seems as if the sin never occurred, is also not for the sinner to experience, but for the one who has been sinned upon.

God gives us lessons to learn from, ones to remember. When we sin against our neighbor, or lie to our neighbor, we have also lied to God. All of our sins are quite a heavy burden for God to walk around with. When God forgives, I believe that he does so to set Himself/Herself free, not the sinner. This is why I don’t think repentance has anything to do with forgiveness. Engaging in an activity (sacrifice), for the sake of repentance, could pose as a reminder for the sinner to stray from their sinful activity. But I don’t see how it directly impacts or relates to forgiveness.

The person who has committed deliberate sin, must be held accountable by others. Not because of forgiveness, but for the sake of right action, and right living. Sinful behavior can be both forgiven and forbidden at the same time.

Hope this makes sense. I just learned it, as I was writing it.

Peace,
Rovivrus2

[Thummim]

A matter of heart.

...Rovivrus, why forgive at all, can't there be healing in not forgiving your transgressor? YHWH seldom forgave intentional sin, until he had exacted some kind of penalty and believed that the sin had been accounted for. I know that one cannot truly forgive an individual unless the heart is satisfied. I agree that a sinner can be righteous. This was the state of a forgiven Israel, and of Moses himself as he watched his people cross the Jordan river. As Israel's sins were mentioned to them, their Eloheem also called them righteous, not for their sakes but for YHWH's own sake. Whether you would benifit from forgiving a transgression against yourself, only you know. Perhaps for your own sake, so that you could cover yourself in the same blanket and dismiss the matter. Only your own heart knows if such forgiveness is possible, and you will not be able to fool it. You cannot forgive when your heart says, No! Sorry for pointing in both directions, at the same time.


25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be "justified". {"tzadek", --> righteous} Isa. 43: 25, 26

....Michael

[ROVIVRUS]

Hi Thummin,

You said:

“Only your own heart knows if such forgiveness is possible, and you will not be able to fool it. You cannot forgive when your heart says, No!”

These statements that you made fit very well in my new paradigm. I hear you, I really do.

I don’t know exactly how I define forgiveness. But I know how I used to define it, and I know what forgiveness it NOT. It’s easier for me to say what it is not, than to say exactly what it is.

In my opinion,

It’s not forgetting
It’s not loosing
It’s not giving up
It’s not justification of sinful behavior
It’s not done to benefit or impact the sinner in any way
It’s not something to dread
It’s not an event, but a process

What do you guys think it is, or is not?

We always hear that forgiveness will occur with repentance of some sort. What if forgiveness happens when one stops seeking repentance from the sinner? I was thinking that a person could want to keep a murderer from killing anyone else, while at the same time forgiving that same murderer for killing one of their loved ones. Because while they refuse to forgive, they continue to resent. I read something recently that said resentment is like cooking a pot of poison soup for our enemy, but drinking it ourselves. I believe this to be true.

Peace,
Rovivrus2

[Thummim]

The by-product of healing.

...I do not think that forgiveness is something that one can choose to do. I think it is born in a person, when healing occurs in them. Forgiveness is the by-product of healing.

....Michael

[ROVIVRUS]

Hello Thummin,

You said:

“...I do not think that forgiveness is something that one can choose to do. I think it is born in a person, when healing occurs in them. Forgiveness is the by-product of healing.”

Wow, I like the way you said that. I never really thought about it that way. I guess I did think that a person can choose it. But maybe they have to be shown it, first. Once we see it and know it is possible, then we work towards it. So it appears as if we have chosen it, but maybe it chooses us.

Hmmmm….

Thanks Thummin

Peace
Rovivrus2

[Thummim]

Bless you!

L' Rovivrus barukh ha,

....Michael

[Valid Name]

America

Greetings Micheal and Rovivrus,

...On "fulfilling" the law, it is impossible for "Jesus" to manage it for the reasons that I listed in my last post. No one can gain any remission of sin through anything that "Jesus" did. Remission of sin does not belong to the law, but rather to a broken spirit, and a broken and contrite heart. Neither is there any remission of sin that comes through the slaughter of a pascel lamb. These "X - tian ideas are completely bogus.

Well, so you know, I do not accept 'christian' ideas. In my opinion they have torn down everything. Somewhere from sunday to xmas, they really have twisted the scriptures.

I agree that remision does not belong to the Law. Yet the sacrifices can teach them the effect of sin, and to show that you need to flee from it, and have a contrite heart. It's funny how many 'christians' believe that the Father relies on the physical blood of a sacrifice to be shed.

You say that no one can gain any remmision from what Messiah did. Yet he taught me just that. He showed me my sin, and that I need to flee from it. Because of his death, I observe sabbath, clean food, and learned of The Father. Of course the cares of the world often pull me down, yet I have learned.

So you know, I attend the other half of Spying's church. I have not talked to him since I began, nor do I think he may remember who I am. I have been to church with him many years ago, however I really just slept on the couch.

Rovivorus, I believe if you wish to forgive and can't, sometimes that happens. Yet I see it as just as good as forgiving. Sometimes things are hard to do. Too hard. Yet if the wish is there, one day things will be alright (which is not to be confused how things were before).

Sorry if my post is a little stray. I am sitting in school.

Sincerely,
Searching

[Matthew23]

ROVIVRUS?

aha! I get it...

SURVIVOR!

[Thummim]

Victory can come in life as well.

...Searching writes;

He showed me my sin, and that I need to flee from it. Because of his death

...And what if he had lived a long life? Wouldn't he have been as good of a rabbi? If this were the case, then the JEWish people couldn't have been accused of killing him. That would have changed history. Without the christian persecution of the JEWish people, wouldn't a faith in the teachings of the tanakh have grown unopposed and without the contributions of the church of Rome? Christianity is not JEWish, as the name of {YaHudaH} is, or it would not have oppressed the JEWish people. In the tanakh, all of its books use the term YHWH as the name of GD, excepting the book of Esther. What is the chance that the letters of YHWH were not used for the name of GD, as a foundation for the faith of christianity to build upon, because of its obvious link to the name of YaHudaH? Wouldn't that have been antisemitic in its truest sense? But now seems a good time for us all to learn the real name of GD and what the term "Hashem" means.

...In any case, I'm glad that you can spot the contributions of the church of Rome, and remove them from your own faith.


O YHWH our Adonai, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. {literally with a corrupt sun} Ps. 8: 1 KJV

Barukh Hashem,

....Michael

[Valid Name]

Antisematic? No. Let HASHEM reign forever.

Greetings Micheal,

...And what if he had lived a long life? Wouldn't he have been as good of a rabbi? If this were the case, then the JEWish people couldn't have been accused of killing him. That would have changed history. Without the christian persecution of the JEWish people, wouldn't a faith in the teachings of the tanakh have grown unopposed and without the contributions of the church of Rome?

Truely, Messiah had to die, for it was written in the books of Moses. Now I know we don't agree upon this, that is okay. Unless you can logically put it together, then it would be pointless anyways. No burning bosums needed (Latter Day Saints). If he had lived a long life, a different book would have been written. The Jewish people were accused of killing him, by 'christians'. Not Christians.

Christian did believe that the Jewish people killed him (not all), along with many many others. Sin is what kills him.

'Christians' persecuted the Jews yes, and so did they other Christians. Anyone who followed the Jewish Law, they persucuted. They killed anyone for observing the sabbath, or judiasing, well after Messiah's death.

Question: Do you see in the New Testement the Christians following the Law?

Do you see how you let no one judge you in sabbath, New moon, or the Feast days? I know that you were once with the 'Christian' crowd. A sunday, xmas, easter type. We here at Tzaddikim have seen where these come from, and the lies that they have created.

Peace,
Valid Name

ps...what does the literaly refer to? Hashem I don't understand the full significance to.