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**hyssop** · 02-09-2002, 02:25 AM

simcha,

I believe that you have touched on heart of the gospel . . .

Hashem, through Yeshua, has saved believers from sin. After having been saved from sin, the believer is now free from the curse of sin: death. The believer is not saved from physical death but, rather, eternal death given upon the day of judgement to those who reject Hashem.

This principle is relatively simple to state. I think that most "Christians" could read the previous paragraph and think, "Yes, that is what I believe." Ahh, but there are so many interpretations of how this all works . . . some say that Yeshua performed the Torah perfectly for them, so they no longer have to pay attention to Hashem's law . . . others say that Jeshua took their place as a sinner and died "in their stead," so they no longer have to pay attention to Hashem's law . . .

While some may consider it a waste of time and too difficult to understand, I believe that it is important to know the mechanics behind Hashem's plan.

[1 Pet 1:9 KJV] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. [10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: [11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

**simcha** · 02-09-2002, 10:53 AM

I just finished doing my study on Matthew for today. A few verses that those who consider that they no longer need to follow Torah (the law).

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

The most forgotten verse in the NT and the most mistranslated! Yeshua did not come to ABOLISH the law (to destroy the law), but to fulfill (make complete, fully preach, to make abounding.) He hit the bullseye. He completed the law in the fact that he lived it to the fullest and gave us the power to do the same. (Law means instruction or principle).

18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

The word for fulfill in v17 is G4137. playrow, from G4134; to make full, to complete:-- accomplish(1), accomplished(1), amply supplied(m)(1), approaching(1), complete(1), completed(3), completing(1), elapsed(1), fill(3), filled(16), fills(1), finished(1), fulfill(5), fulfilled(35), fully carry out(m)(3), fully come(1), fully preached(m)(1), increasing(m)(1), made complete(2), made full(5), make complete(1), make full(1), passed(2), supply(1).

While the word for accomplished in v18 isG1096. ginomai, from a prim. root gen; to come into being, to happen, to become:-- accomplished(1), appeared(2), arise(1), arisen(1), arises(2), arose(16), arrived(2), became(53), become(83), becomes(8), becoming(2), been(17), been made(1), befall(1), behaved(m)(1), being(2), being carried out(1), being done(2), being made(2), born(m)(5), breaking*(1), brought(m)(1), came(m)(92), came into being(2), came to be(3), came to pass(2), come(26), come into being(1), come to be(1), comes(1), comes to pass(3), coming(1), dawn(1), determined*(1), developing(1), done(21), drawing(1), during(1), elapsed(1), existed*(1), falling(1), feeling(m)(1), fell(m)(6), finished(1), followed(1), formed(m)(3), found(2), get(4), give(1), got(1), granted(1), grown up*(1), had(1), happen(6), happened(33), happening(5), has(m)(3), join*(1), joined(3), made(16), might(1), occur(3), occurred(10), performed(4), prove(5), prove to be(2), proved(1), proved to be(5), proving to be(1), put on(1), reached(2), realized(1), result(m)(1), results(2), rose(1), show(1), spent(1), split(1), spoken(m)(1), starting(1), take place(16), taken(2), taken place(5), takes place(1), taking place(3), thundered*(1), took place(7), turned(1), turns out(3).

19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Oops! Does anyone see this verse? We are not to annul these commandments or teach others to do so. What has the church done?

20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.[COLOR=crimson][COLOR=crimson][COLOR=crimson][COLOR=red]

**hyssop** · 02-09-2002, 05:51 PM

Fulfillment of Law

simcha,

If I may, I would like to ask you to consider the following piece of law:

[Lev 1:3 KJV] If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the L-RD.[4] And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.[5] And he shall kill the bullock before the L-RD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.[6] And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.[7] And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:[8] And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:[9] But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the L-RD.

Has this command been annulled? If not, how do we flay and wash our sacrifice?

**simcha** · 02-09-2002, 08:27 PM

First of all, I believe this command cannot be carried out at this time as we have not temple and no priesthood to carry out the sacrificial system.

We have had a lot of discussion on this and I have to consider the following verses.

Mal 1:20 In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the LORD'S house will be like the bowls before the altar.
21 And every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.

I am not sure exactly what this means, but "in that day" tells me that this is in the end times and they are still sacrificing in the temple. I do think that if we are to sacrifice in that day that Yeshua will be there to teach us how to flay and wash our sacrifice or either the priesthood will be restored and they will teach us.

**hyssop** · 02-09-2002, 10:38 PM

Please bear with me as I ask the following question. I am just trying to get an idea of where you are coming from.

And, so . . . if Yeshua fulfilled this commandment almost two thousand years ago, how do you think that he did that?

**simcha** · 02-10-2002, 08:33 AM

This is what I believe AT THIS TIME. I have believed many things that have changed as I have studied.

The sacrifces themselves never took away sin. it was always repentence. The sacrifices were a picture of what was to come. I could only give you NT verses at this point as proof, so this is not a set in stone belief of mine. It is something that I still need to study.

If there were a sacrificial system at this time, I would participate if I were in Israel and not being in Israel I would send my tithes monetarily as scripture states.

The only example I have is Yeshua himself. He was a Jew and worshipped in the temple and from all I can gather did his sacrifices there. He never said not to do them.

**hyssop** · 02-10-2002, 10:56 PM

Fulfillment of Torah

simcha,

Let me preface this post with the following comments:

Please walk with me for a while before passing judgement upon what I am about to say. Although you may hear what sounds like the traditional view of Paul and how his writings are used to annul the Torah, I love the Torah. I observe the Sabbath, new moons, feast days, dietary laws. My third (and youngest) son was born after my conversion and was circumcised on the eighth day . . .

You stated that the sacrifices were a picture of what was to come. I agree. Actually, they were a picture of who was to come: Yeshua. Let's take a look at Leviticus 1:

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="7" WIDTH="100%"><TR><TD WIDTH="50%" ALIGN="CENTER" VALIGN="TOP">Leviticus 1</TD><TD WIDTH="50%" ALIGN="CENTER" VALIGN="MIDDLE">Potential Fulfillment</TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">[Lev 1: 3 KJV] If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the L-RD. [4] And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.</TD><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">A male without blemish: [1 Pet 1:18 KJV] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [19] But with the precious blood of [Meshiach], as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:</font</TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">[5] And he shall kill the bullock before the L-RD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. [6] And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.</font</TD><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">It was at the hands of the chief priests that Yeshua was betrayed, arrested, scourged, and crucified: [Mark 14:1 KJV] After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. [John 19:6 KJV] When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. [Luke 24:20 KJV] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.</TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">[7] And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire: [8] And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:</TD><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">Meshiach was laid in order on the wood (the cedar cross) and burned (suffered and died): [Heb 13:11 KJV] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] Wherefore [Yeshua] also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now that brings us to verse 9:

[Lev 1:9 KJV] But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the L-RD.

If Yeshua, in his death, is fulfilling (as you wrote: "to complete" or "to accomplish") this piece of Torah, then how did he do it?

[John 19:32 KJV] Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. [33] But when they came to [Yeshua], and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: [34] But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. [35] And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. [36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Wow! Now that's fulfullment of Torah! Just picture this event in your mind: Yeshua is dead. He can no longer consciously do anything about accomplishing Torah or prophesy. A soldier comes along and shoves a spear in Yeshua's side which pierces his stomach or bladder, and water washes through his inwards and down his legs . . . thus, fulfilling Lev 1:9!

It gives me goosebumps to ponder upon the power and wisdom of Hashem: Satan entered into Judas to foil Hashem's plan which existed from the foundation of the world, saw that the Messiach was murdered, and unknowingly participated in the fulfillment of Torah to the letter.

simcha, I want to again stress that I do not believe that not the smallest letter or stroke has passed away from the Law.

[Rom 3:31 KJV] Do we then make void the law through faith? G-d forbid: yea, we establish the law.

**simcha** · 02-11-2002, 05:57 AM

I agree with all of this, but I believe you asked if this law of the burnt sacrifice had been annulled.

I do believe Yeshua was the sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice, but I do not know that the picture needs to end at that since there are many, many Jews who do not believe Yeshua was the sacrifice. I do not see where it says if the temple is rebuilt you shall not sacrifice in it.

As I said before, I do not believe the sacrificial system ever took away sin. It has always been repentence which Yeshua preached. His blood took away the curse of death which was the penalty for sin.

Once again, this is a moot point for me. I do not live in Jerusalem, there is no temple or sacrificial system and may not be before Messiah returns.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I know that Yeshua is my sacrificial lamb, but I do not know how this impacts the priestly sacrificial system if the temple were to be rebuilt.

**hyssop** · 02-11-2002, 10:03 PM

Yes. For those many, many Jews who do not believe that Yeshua is the Meshiach, there is no other sacrifice apart from the physical. And I will not tell a believer that it would be wrong to participate in temple sacrifice.

If you are willing, I would like to examine the mechanics behind sin and sacrifice. You said that sacrifice did not take away sin. For the most part, I agree. Consider the words of Micah:

[Micah 6:7 KJV] Will the L-RD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? [8] He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the L-RD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d?

At this point, sacrifice was certainly not taking away sin. In fact, just the opposite was happening: people were using sacrifice as a license to sin; many thought "hey, I want to do this sin and I can afford the sacrifice, so I'm happy and Hashem is happy."

Micah's message was that Hashem wants righteousness, not sacrifice. So, what was the purpose of sacrifice? Well, I believe that it was supposed to turn the individual from sin. When the individual had to select the best of the flock/herd and kill that animal as a result of their sin, they should want to avoid sin. That's the message behind the sacrificial system: sin kills -- avoid it at all cost. So, if the sacrifices were used in the manner for which they were given, one could say that sacrifices took away sin. What do you think?

**Searching** · 02-11-2002, 10:13 PM

Turning Point

Mr. Hyssop,

I agree that the Sacrifice does not take away the sin.
However, when in the Old Testement is the sin forgiven? Is it immeditaly when one repents and turns from sin? I would think so, seems only fair eh? I am sure though if one didn't sacrifice when they were supposed to and had a chance to, it would be a sin, even it they had repented and turned.

However, a silly question that I might ask, is what is the need for Messiah then? If sins were forgiven in the Past, for repentance, what is it that the Jews were waiting for? Thier sins could already be forgiven right?

Say hi to the fam.

Sincerely,
Searching

**simcha** · 02-12-2002, 06:17 AM

Thanks for both of your replys.

I agree with both of you, but I must take time to study to answer this properly. This is a subject not to be taken lightly, and I would not want my answer to cause someone to stumble.

I will post on this subject when I have something of content and not just answering for the sake of answering. Please bear with me.

**simcha** · 02-13-2002, 08:27 PM

I believe one purpose for the sacrifice of Yeshua was to become the second Adam, who was sinless, to replace the first Adam, who sinned. This made Him the high priest and took away the curse of death and the grave. This is not taking a way physical death, but spiritual death.

Another sacrifice that Yeshua fulfilled was the sacrifice of the Passover lamb. Again this had to do with overcoming death, and was the purchase (redemption) price for our lives as believers, as the firstborn of the Messiah.

Repentence is just that, turning away from sin and turning back to the Father. The sacrifices were the vehicles through which we could understand the depth of sin and the need to be brought out of sin.

**Searching** · 02-14-2002, 05:03 AM

Exodus

Simcha,

Was it necessary for Adam to be replaced?

Searching

**simcha** · 02-14-2002, 06:27 AM

I believe it was necessary. There is an order to this universe and an order to the spirit realm. When that order is disturbed, such as Adam's first disobedient act, it took everything out of it's perfect order and Adam and Eve were cast out of Gan Eden. In order for us to get back to Gan Eden, to that perfect relationship with Hashem, something or someone had to reverse the process. Yeshua did that. Just as Adam's sin brought death into the world, Yeshua as the sinless sacrifice, being a sacrifice of his own free will, turned the process around. We are now headed back to Gan Eden, to the promise land if you will. To that perfect relationship with Hashem.

It is very early in the morning here, 5:30 a.m., so if this doesn't make sense to you we will blame it on the fact that I have only had one cup of coffee.

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