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  • #16
    sacrifices

    Hello all:

    Hyssop brought forth a very good analogy to prove what sacrifices pictured:

    Hyssop: You stated that the sacrifices were a picture of what was to come. I agree. Actually, they were a picture of who was to come: Yeshua.

    As Hyssop stated, the whole process of the crucificion and his portrayal of water from the wound is indeed an actual portrayal of a burnt offering.

    My purpose in the following, is not to take away from his analogy but to build (edify) upon it for the purpose of helping raise the temple (us).

    Yashuah’s sacrifice completed more than the burnt offering. It also completed Passover and Atonement.

    Mat gives a chronology of the days preceding Passover. According to the Passover covenant, on the tenth day of the 1st month, the lambs were selected and examined until the fourteenth. The day that Messiah entered Jerusalem on the donkey was the 10th of Nissan. He entered just before the high priest who was bringing the selected lamb into Jerusalem to the temple. That is when, every year, the people would stand next to the road with palms and say “hossanna in the Highest – Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”. They were anticipating the coming of the Messiah.

    If you will read the account, the priests were angry with Messiah because he was going on the donkey before them. Messiah said that this is the day that this is fulfilled and that “Yah would raise up stones, if necessary, to proclaim it”. He then proceeded to the temple and was EXAMINED for 4 days (off and on) before the priests, AND THEY COULD FIND NO FAULT IN HIM. THE PRIESTS ENDED UP IN LIES AND FALSE ACCUSATIONS TRYING TO FIND A BLEMISH IN THE “LAMB”.

    On Passover, it was at 3:00 pm that the first lamb was killed by the priests for the Passover of the WHOLE CONGREGATION. This is precisely the hour that Messiah was crucified. The WHOLE PURPOSE YAH ORDAINED THE PASSOVER WAS FOR THIS VERY YEAR.

    The second sacrifice Messiah fulfilled (completed) was Atonement. Paul in Hebrews gives the details of this in chapter 9. The word atonement means: covering, ransom, price of a life, reconciliation and PURGE. By his sacrifice, Messiah, AS HIGH PRIEST OF THE ORDER OF MELCHIZIDEC, entered into the HOLY OF HOLIES of the TABERNACLE made without hands. In other words he BEGAN (the cornerstone is always laid first) the NEW TABERNACLE which is fashioned by Yahweh, and consists of THE PROPHETS, THE APOSTLES and the “CALLED OUT ONES”. This tabernacle is contained in the temple that proceeds from Yah in Rev 21. “How much more will the blood of the Messiah, Who, through the eternal spirit offered Himself without spot to Yah, PURGE YOUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WORKS to serve the living Father?”

    Purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works. That is the key to understanding the sacrifices. The fault with the sacrifices of leviticus, was that, although they could forgive sin, they COULDN’T give us the Desire NOT to sin. This is what many don’t understand about Hebrews. This is what Paul was explaining.

    Heb 10:1: For the Law can never with these SAME SACRIFICES, which they offer continually year by year, MAKE THOSE WHO COME NEAR PERFECT. That word “PERFECT” means: ADD WHAT IS WANTING TO RENDER A THING FULL!!!

    What was WANTING is explained in verse 2: For then, would they not have CEASED to be offered? For the worshipers, once purged, would have had no more CONSCIOUSNESS of sins. (See Heb:9:14 above) The word CONSCIOUSNESS is the key to understanding Heb 10: CONSCIOUSNESS: distinguishing between good and bad, PROMPTING TO DO GOOD AND SHUN BAD!!!! Although the Priests, had they been doing their job, could have taught this “consciousness”; but the law in itself could not. That is why a RENEWED priesthood of Meschizedec was needed, because through it YAHWEH WOULD WRITE HIS LAWS IN OUR HEARTS (INNER BEING) AND MINDS, THEREBY GIVING US “THIS CONSCIOUSNESS” AND GIVING US THE DESIRE NOT TO SIN.

    That is WHY we have had no LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD for 2000 years – BECAUSE THEY FAILED IN THEIR JOB. It doesn’t matter how many temples they build in Jerusalem! They, the priests, have failed and are still failing today BECAUSE OF THE STUMBLING BLOCK OF MESSIAH. THEY REFUSE TO ACCEPT HIM AND ARE SUBSEQUENTLY BLINDED (for the mercy of the gentiles who now can be grafted into Israel). WE ARE THE TEMPLE AND WE ARE TO PRESENT OUR BODIES AS LIVING SACRIFICES. WE ARE THE PRIESTS OF THE ORDER OF MELCHIZIDEC!!

    Another interesting item is that in the physical priesthood at the time of the millenium neither the sacrifices of Passover or Atonement are mentioned in Ezekial.

    Jay
    jay

    Comment


    • #17
      Happy Birthday, simcha

      Thanks for starting off your birthday with us; I hope it has been a good day for you.

      If I may reiterate what I understand you to be saying about sin and Adam. Basically, do you believe that:
      <hr>Hashem had a plan for Adam that was "sidetracked." Either Adam, satan, or both of them (through Adam's sin) threw Hashem's perfect order "out of kilter." And, now, through Yeshua, Hashem is in the process of putting things back ("fixing" something broken) the way they were when Adam and Eve were living in Hagan Eden.<hr>
      Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

      hyssop

      Comment


      • #18
        Hello all,

        In this post, I would like to explain my understanding of sacrifices. They are also referred to a OFFERINGS. There were:

        Burnt offerings, drink offerings, grain offerings, freewill offerings, heave offerings, jealousy offerings, meat offerings, peace offerings, sin offerings, thanksgiving offerings, trespass offerings, and wave offerings. The ones I wish to address are the sacrifices that resulted in FORGIVENESS.

        Lev 4:20: (sin offering) This is an offering when the whole congregation sins ignorantly. “And the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation and it shall be FORGIVEN them.”

        Lev 4:26: (sin offering) Offering for when a ruler sins ignorantly. “So the priest shall make atonement for the ruler concerning his sin, and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

        Lev 4:31 (sin offering) offering for when any other member of the congregation sins ignorantly. “So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

        Lev 5:10 (tresspass offering) offering for broken vows, negligence, uncleaness. “So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf, for his sin which he has sinned; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

        Lev 5:13 (tresspass offering) poor man’s offering

        Lev 5:16 (tresspass offering) offering for sinning ignorantly against Yah’s holy things. “priest shall make atonement for him; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

        Lev 5:18 (tresspass offering) offering for ignorantly breaking any Law of Yah. “priest shall make atonement for him; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

        Lev 6:7 (burnt offering) offering for perjury, false witness, robbery, extortion. “priest shall make atonement for him; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

        Lev 19:22 (tresspass offering) offering for revenge, coveting, sexual sins, pride, fraud, stealing, slander “priest shall make atonement for him; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

        Before the sacrifice, the person who committed the offense was FIRST supposed to make AMMENDS with the injured party. For instance, if the offense was stealing, the guilty party was to pay 3 times the value of the injury, but if he sold it, he was to pay 5 times the value.

        Unfortunately, the priests and levites were not teaching this principle, and were only interested in the heave offerings and wave offerings which was the payment for them. It is exactly the same today. The priests (in black robes) do not seek restitution for the victims but are only interested in the fines (heave offerings) and court costs (wave offerings). Because they did not do their job, Yah annulled the WHOLE PRIESTHOOD, and replaced it with the Melchizidec priesthood. Then Yah placed his spirit in each of us so we now have but one teacher and shepherd, Messiah. These sacrifices were ordained because of (trespasses) the calf incident at Sinai only until the seed should come (Messiah) (Gal 3:19)

        As far as how the sacrificial systems would impact us should the temple be rebuilt prior to Messiah's return; this is my answer. There is no way that I will come under the authority of a Aaronite Priest who doesn't even accept the sacrifice of Yahshua. THEY ARE LIARS BECAUSE THEY CALL MESSIAH A LIAR. (1Jn 5:10) I won't even invite them into my house let alone worship at their temple (2Jn 10).

        Jay
        jay

        Comment


        • #19
          Hyssop,

          Thanks for the birthday wish. I had a very good day. Thanks.

          Yes, this is what I am saying. Yeshua was the second Adam. Just as many of the patriarchs were the second son who became the priest of the family.

          Now to address Cook's statement about the priests. Are we not to carry the truth to those who do not know the truth? How can you therefore say that you would not even invite them into your home. Doesn't that sound a lot like what the pharasees taught in Yeshua's time. They would not enter the home of a Gentile or have anything to do with them, yet Yeshua taught that we should take the gospel to the whole world. Our hearts need to be gentle one toward another.

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi Simcha,

            Your comment: Now to address Cook's statement about the priests. Are we not to carry the truth to those who do not know the truth? How can you therefore say that you would not even invite them into your home. Doesn't that sound a lot like what the pharasees taught in Yeshua's time. They would not enter the home of a Gentile or have anything to do with them, yet Yeshua taught that we should take the gospel to the whole world. Our hearts need to be gentle one toward another.

            Jay's Comment: It's not what the pharasees taught, but what the APOSTLE JOHN taught. If I welcomed him it would cause me to be a partaker of his evil deeds. 1Jn 8-11.

            Yahshua said, I believe, that this gospel (message) would be preached, heralded, published and proclaimed throughout the whole world. That is being done by the scriptures, not by us. That statement has been adopted by the world's churches to propetuate their money scheme. The purpose of the called out ones is to edify (build) the temple. Yah chooses whom he will call.



            jay

            Comment


            • #21
              cook,

              I'd have to agree with simcha. You shouldn't be too hard on the Jew.
              [Rom 11:25 KJV]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. </font>[26]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:</font>[27]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> For this <I>is</i> my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. </font>[28]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> As concerning the gospel, <I>they are</i> enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, <I>they are</i> beloved for the fathers' sakes.</font>
              The Pharisee of Yeshua's day was "wise in his own conceit." He had the attitude: "I am Hashem's chosen, and the rest of you might as well be cattle." --- "Boy, am I glad that I'm not a Gentile; they're doomed." It turned out that "pride came before fall, and they stumbled at the stumblingstone (Yeshua)." For the most part, Israel was blinded and Hashem called the Gentiles in great numbers.
              It's interesting to note that a great deal of Paul's time was spent trying to keep the flock in line . . . the uninformed Gentiles were incorporating many of their beliefs and practices into their new religion.
              [2 Tim 4:3]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; </font> [4]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And they shall turn away <I>their</i> ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.</font>
              [Acts 20:29 KJV]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.</font>[30]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. </font>[31]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.</font>
              It didn't take long . . . the Sabbath was changed to Sunday (the day of the Sun), the church established Easter (the Spring festival) and Christmas (the Winter festival) as "Holy Days," Hashem's Holy Days were forgotten, and the list goes on and on.

              Where are we today? Well, the "Christian" world is saying to themselves: "Boy am I glad that G-d chose me and that I'm not a Jew" --- "They killed Yeshua; they don't believe; they're doomed." Sound familiar? Two thousand years later, the Gentiles sound just like the Pharisees. And, guess what . . . for the most part, these Gentiles are no more "in" with G-d than the Pharisees were. Why? Because they've ignored Hashem's word; they want to believe that the Torah has been "fulfilled" "completed" "done away." They don't want to <I>have to do</i> what Hashem commands. And because of that attitude, Hashem has blinded many of them so that they are in darkness.

              What's the next step? The tables are going to be turned. <B>The Jew is going to be called!</b> We've been looking into the spiritual fulfillment of the sacrifices on this thread. Until now, the Jew can only see the <U>physical</u> keeping of the Torah. I say, "until now," because I know in my very soul that Hashem is going pour His spirit upon the Jew . . . and when that happens . . .
              [2 Cor 3:14 KJV]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Chr-st.</font>[15]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. </font>[16]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Nevertheless when it shall turn to the L-rd, the veil shall be taken away.</font>
              The scripture does not say, "<I>if</i> it shall turn," it says, "<I>when</i> it shall turn." Hashem is going to show the Jew things that the Gentile "Christian" could never see. Why?
              [Rom 3:1 KJV]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit <I>is there</i> of circumcision? </font>[2]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of G-d.</font>
              They have the Torah! They've been studying the physical for millinia . . . and they are going to be able to use that experience/knowledge to understand the spiritual.
              One of my greatest hopes is that Hashem let me live to see the Jew awakened to Yeshua and to the spiritual lessons "hidden" in the Torah.
              Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

              hyssop

              Comment


              • #22
                Jay,

                In your comment you quote 1 Jn 8:11. I do not find any such scripture. Could you please restate your quote.

                Hyssop pretty much said everything. I agree with Hyssop.

                Comment


                • #23
                  simcha,

                  I think that Jay quoted I John 1: 8-11.

                  Jay,

                  I agree with you that evangelism has been misused by many to "extort" money from the masses. But I do feel that it is our job to spread Yah's truth:
                  [Mat 28:19 KJV]<FONT COLOR=RED> Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: </font>[20]<FONT COLOR=RED> Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, <I>even</i> unto the end of the world. </font><FONT COLOR=BLUE>Amen.</font>
                  [Rom 10:14 KJV]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? </font>[15]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!</font>
                  Notice that I said "our job." I think that every believer should be ready and willing to witness their faith.

                  Simcha, back to our topic:

                  Do you feel that 1) it was Yah's plan to have Adam and Eve tend Hagan Eden forever; and/or 2) that there will again be another Gan Eden set up on earth to be inhabited by man forever?
                  Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

                  hyssop

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hi Hyssop:

                    You said: I'd have to agree with simcha. You shouldn't be too hard on the Jew

                    Jay's comment: The issue to me is: Who composes the Israel of Yah? Is it the Jews? No. It is both the gentile and the jew WHOM YAH CALLS. 2john, that I quoted above, confirms that faith (conviction of the truth) that Messiah HAS COME in the flesh is the criteria for determining whether a man should be WELCOMED into your house. If they don't believe this teaching, they are a DECEIVER and ANTICHRIST (VS 7)!

                    Hyssop, you then quote Rom 11:25-28. Vs 28 states that ISRAEL
                    is our ENEMY. BUT, they are beloved for THE SAKE OF THEIR FATHER'S. (not for their own sake). Israel composes 11 other tribes besides the Jews. It is probable that these 11 other tribes are composed of the "christian" preachers who have joined Judah in DECEPTION even though not denying Messiah and are not "technically" an ADVERSARY OF MESSIAH (antichrist); but yet they deny the Law.

                    Judah itself, denies the Law by insisting that the Babylonian Talmud is their MOST IMPORTANT TEACHING! (Jewish Encyclopedia) (commands of men) This book is what teaches that all non-jews are cattle and beasts of burden. This book teaches that sodomy is lawful, and sex with young girls or boys under the age of nine is lawful (San 546); Beastiality is lawful (yeba 596); Child sacrifice is lawful (San 64a); and harlotry is lawful (Abodah Zarah 626-63a)

                    My intention is not to be hard on the Jews at large, but yes, I'm VERY HARD concerning the RABBIS, because this is their belief. They are all gnostics, and like the preachers, they have LED JUDAH ASTRAY.

                    Ever since Hillel II (380AD), they have perverted the calendar, changing the months to the names of their pagan gods, changing the beginning of the year to the fall, changing the beginning of DAY to NIGHT, changing the beginning of the month to the sliver moon, and adding unscriptural postponements to the Feasts of the Almighty Yah.

                    Hyssop, then you quote Rom 3:1,2, (much in the way the preachers quoted it to me): 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed (#4100) the oracles of God.

                    Committed: Grk Pisteuo: to think to be true, to be persuaded of,

                    If the Rabbis hold the Talmud in higher esteem, would you still think they are persuaded by the utterances of Yah? If we believe that the new testament is also the utterances of Yah, are you convinced that the Rabbis "think them to be true"?.

                    The oracles of Yah are now believed and persuasive to the Called Out Ones, the Israel of Yah. Yes there are Jews and Gadites, and Ephramites, and Gentiles who are the Israel of Yah, but there is not ONE RABBI----YET.

                    We, the ekklesia, are the Priests; the only ones whom now UNDERSTAND the utterances of Yah, since we are the ONLY ones who have the Spirit of Yah.

                    The Scriptures have been "preached" (published, heralded, and proclaimed) through the distribution of "bibles" throughout the ENTIRE WORLD. We are not the "Sent Ones" (apostles) designated by Yah "to go to an appointed place". The same apostles that Messiah chose and prophets that Yah chose, are STILL FULFILLING THAT ASSIGNMENT through the New and Old Testaments throughout the entire world. Our job is to establish "ASSEMBLIES" and "BUILD THE TEMPLE" (see Nehimiah, Ezra, Kings and Chronicles). Yah says in many scriptures that HE WILL DO A WORK. HE WILL CALL WHOM HE CHOOSES. Our "work" is to be ready to EDIFY (build up each other) through the GIFTS OF THE SET APART SPIRIT.

                    Hyssop: Next you quote Mat 28:19 - [Mat 28:19 KJV] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

                    This command to go into all the nations was given to the Apostles (sent ones). We are to be attending to verse 20: observing all things I have commanded you.

                    This is what a TRUE WITNESS (that you are alluding to) does. He LIVES the TORAH. A true witness talks about the Torah mainly to Build up the Ekklesia. A true witness, does not have unequal weights and measures in his bag. A true witness does not allow the State to educate his kids; he educates them himself as commanded. A true witness does not enter into covenants with foreign governments; A true witness wears a tizit; A true witness does not participate in usuary with his brother nor does he pay usuary to the money masters; A true witness does not eat genetically altered foods, nor irradiated meats and vegetables; A true witness does not participate in commerce but practices private business and deals in substance (wheat, honey, gold, silver) instead of stealing (paper dollars); A true witness has 3 1/2 years supply of food as commanded in the scriptures and has zero debt; A true witness realizes that all these are commanded in the scriptures, and he EXHORTS the Assembly how and why they must OBSERVE ALL THESE THINGS.
                    jay

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Well, Hyssop, it certainly seems that had Adam not sinned by disobeying Hashem that we would be living in Gan Eden now. I would cannot say what Hashem's plan was. I guess it was as we are now, since he is omnipresent and knew what would happen. That is one of those areas that is too lofty for my earthly brain.

                      As for whether we will live in Gan Eden again, I think we will have the same relationship with Hashem that Adam had. We will be totally taken care of by Hashem and even the animals will all get along, so to me that is a picture of Gan Eden. Of course, this is my own opinion and with that and whatever coffee costs now you can get a cup of coffee.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        cook,

                        Wow! Did we hit a nerve or something?

                        I started a thread under Open Theology Discussion called "A True Witness." I would appreciate it if you would expound on the scriptural basis for some of the "true witness" attributes you've mentioned (e.g. don't eat irradiated meats, don't use paper money, etc.)

                        I created the additional thread for the purpose of trying to focus the conversation that we had going on here. I'm as guilty as anyone else when it comes to touching on a multitude of side topics to the conversation at hand, and that makes it difficult to follow the point. Soooo . . . here, we're talking about salvation --- from what are we being saved and how is Hashem bringing it about?

                        To be continued . . .
                        Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

                        hyssop

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Cook,

                          I feel that you are very adament about what you believe and obviously it is not how I interpret those passages. I will not argue the points you have made other than to say that there are many rabbi's who have accepted Yeshua as the Messiah. Someone had to set the example and show them the way.

                          I would also say that the lost tribes of Israel are assimilated into the nations. That could be you or me. And yes, Hashem calls out whom He wishes, but if they have not been given the truth how will they know what He is calling them for?

                          Yeshua is my example. Not men's good intentions. Therefore I must follow in His steps.

                          Shalom
                          Simcha

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Hello again, Hyssop and Simcha,

                            I realise that what I have written in this thread sounds "very opinionated" to you all, but I am convinced that it is scriptural. After all, that is the main object of this forum, to discern the truth of the scriptures. My goal is to be "hot", not "cold" and certainly not "lukewarm".

                            I also realise that you might be thinking "who is this guy"? So, I guess that a brief biography might be in order. I am 55 years old, have always been self employed, went to Vietnam, raised two sons without a mother, and was baptized into WWCG around 78 (they kept Sabbath and Feasts). I basically sat around the congregation like a bump on a log (or a box of rocks) until Yah shook up that "church" in 96. Since then, I have attended an "independent" for a short while, but since my sons were grown (and no wife) found time to do an intense study of the scriptures only. No commentaries, no published "guides", only the scriptures. I also include, along with biblical law, U.S. law, international law, world history, U.S. history, and some archeology. I have found, that with a computer, and a program called "online bible" (plus several translations) I can do a THOROUGH study on any particular issue, in a very very short time. So, since 96, my sons and I have been committed to becoming "worthy to escape the wrath that is coming", which from my best judgement will be FINISHED on the jubilee of 2013.

                            So, trusting that Yah, will not allow my family (two grandsons so far) to be "caught unaware" and at the same time realising that I have only a few years to get my "act together", I probably do write with a certain sense of "urgency", for we each are responsible for our own families and since I sense a great possibility that you all must realise that "faith without WORKS" is dead also, then I'll feel compelled to continue "giving an answer" for what I believe about salvation.

                            Oops, one of you answered another thread, and I have to go feed the chickens, so I'll continue my answer in a bit.

                            PS: Since there are only 7 members (so far) on this forum, I would enjoy and appreciate a short biography from each of you.
                            Last edited by cook; 02-16-2002, 02:48 PM.
                            jay

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hello Hyssop, Simcha and all,

                              First of all, I would like to reiterate my PS on the previous post. I would enjoy and appreciate a short biography from each of you. (there are 7 members and #7 means completion, but when we have eight it means a new beginning)

                              Simcha said:
                              I feel that you are very adament about what you believe and obviously it is not how I interpret those passages. I will not argue the points you have made other than to say that there are many rabbi's who have accepted Yeshua as the Messiah. Someone had to set the example and show them the way.

                              Jay's comment: If there are many rabbi's who have accepted Messiah, then they should be familiar with Mat 23:8:

                              But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

                              It's interesting that throughout the whole new testament, that not one writer refers to anyone as rabbi, except Messiah. John the Baptist's disciples refer to John as Rabbi in Jn 3:26 but John immediately in verse 30 says: He must increase; but I must decrease (referring to Messiah)

                              The word rabbi means: my great one
                              It is a title of nobility (which is even against the US Constitution)

                              Any converted man of Yah, who would claim that he is a rabbi would be suspect in my mind.

                              Simcha, when you say you will not "argue the point", that is most certainly your option. But I say:

                              2Tim 3:
                              All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
                              17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {throughly…: or, perfected}

                              The word reproof means: to prove through argument
                              The word rubuke means: to convince

                              We are also admonished by scripture to:
                              "give an answer for what we believe" and
                              "iron sharpens iron"

                              The stakes are high, and we all are going to stand before Messiah and we better learn to "give a (scriptural) answer" because we won't be able to hire a lawyer to defend us. In fact, 1pet 4:17 states that the house of Yah is NOW UNDER JUDGEMENT.

                              Paul says to "imitate him as he imitates Messiah". Paul was a lawyer (a prosecutor specifically) who was in court much of the time. Even though Yah says he will put the words in our mouths when we go before judges, you can bet that we better know His Word thoroughly or we will just stand there mute. (that would be incompetence)


                              Simcha said: I would also say that the lost tribes of Israel are assimilated into the nations. That could be you or me. And yes, Hashem calls out whom He wishes, but if they have not been given the truth how will they know what He is calling them for?

                              Jay's comment: If Yah is calling them, they will be led to the scriptures, which is the only source of truth, for: Psalms 116:11 All men are liars.

                              and

                              Mark 10:27 With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


                              jay

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hashem's Plan

                                simcha,

                                I don't know if you've seen it, but there is an article called "Original Sin" on our home page: . I wrote it before I became sensitive to the use of the secular names, so I hope that it is not offensive to you.

                                I thought about responding to your post where you said, "I guess [Hashem's plan] was as we are now, since he is omnipresent and knew what would happen" with some of the content from Original Sin. But then I thought that I would point you to the article and hope that it gives you a good sense of where we stand on the issue of Hashem's plan for man. Any comments/corrections that you might have would be appreciated.
                                Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

                                hyssop

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