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**hyssop** · 02-24-2002, 08:04 PM

Hi Cook,

Have you exercised your "free will" and taken control of your fleshly body?<ul><li>Are you without sin?</li><li>Do you perform every word of Yah every day without fail?</li><li>Do you have total control of your tongue? That is, do you never say anything that you wish, later, that you hadn't said?</li></ul> Should your answer be "yes" to the above, when did you gain this control? Was it at the moment of your conversion?

**simcha** · 02-25-2002, 07:42 PM

Cook

I would like to know your answers to Hyssop's questions also. Are you sinless? Do you live without sinning every day?

Simcha

**cook** · 02-25-2002, 09:56 PM

Hello Hyssop and Simcha:

I'm thinking about how I will word it. Give me a little time please.

**hyssop** · 02-25-2002, 10:39 PM

No problem, take your time . . . I look forward to your answer.

While we wait, I'd like to address something that you previously posted. <BLOCKQUOTE>Cook:<HR>The word "carnally" is the same word as "flesh" (#4561). Verse 8:5 drives the point home! (and I'll give the INTENT) - For they that are according to the CARNAL (flesh), SET THEIR MINDS ON THE THINGS OF THE FLESH (carnality); but they that are according to the Spirit, (set their minds on) the THINGS OF THE SPIRIT.<HR></blockquote>I absolutely agree with you when you equate carnal/carnally to flesh/fleshly. Now, let's take a look at the scripture you've quoted; if you don't mind I'll stick to the actual written words (underlines are mine):<BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 8:5 KJV<HR> For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.<HR></blockquote>It's pretty clear to me that Paul is not speaking about your two minds but, rather, two types of people: the unconverted and the converted. I don't know that I could rewrite it to make the intent any clearer. Paul compares "they that are after the flesh" to "they that are after the Spirit." Although you seem to be able to read this and conclude that the two "they's" are really the same people, I must disagree.

But . . . that's for later discussion

**hyssop** · 03-02-2002, 10:36 AM

Hi, simcha:

I am hoping that we might get back to our earlier discussion about free will. I think that we both agree that no one can become a converted individual and instantly live sin-free; overcoming sin is a life-long process.

Now, it does seem that everyone has a free will . . . that is, everyone is continually faced with decisions regarding sin . . . and no one forces us to choose sin over righteousness or righteousness over sin . . . we all make up our own minds at that moment of choice.

My next question to those who believe that they have a free will is, "Can you exercise your free will from this point in your life to live a righteous life without sinning?" Most will admit that, as hard as they try and as much as they would like to, they have not totally overcome sin.

If we cannot choose to perform only righteousness, do we really have a free will? What is keeping us from performing only righteousness? Paul said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 7:23 KJV<HR>But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.<HR></blockquote>I think that Paul was saying that he was still in his physical body, and his physical body had fleshly/carnal desires that he could not always control. It wasn't that Paul didn't want to live without sin; he was struggling against his flesh.<BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 7:24-25 KJV<HR>[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank G-d through [Yeshua Meshiach] our L-rd. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of G-d; but with the flesh the law of sin.<HR></blockquote>So then, if man cannot choose to perform only righteousness, does he really have a free will?

**simcha** · 03-04-2002, 06:27 AM

Sorry, Hyssop, I had to think about this and still don't know that I have a good answer for you. I do believe scripture shows us that we do have free will, but even though our will is to not sin, we are so full of love for ourselves that we fail. Not only that, I am not sure we know what a sinless life is. We are so far removed from the time of Yeshua and from the culture of the Israelites that it is even difficult to do things like observe the Sabbath. But the commands that we do keep and seeking the heart of Hashem bring us such joy that we still try.

I think I am rambling and forgive me if I am. It is 5:00 a.m. in the morning and I am not too clear yet.

Simcha

**hyssop** · 03-04-2002, 11:28 PM

Hi, simcha:

If one believes that all have a truly free will, I would think it hard to explain why, with billions and billions of people freely choosing their whole lives, that no one (apart from the Meshiach) has chosen to always perform righteousness.<BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 3 KJV<HR>[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after G-d. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.<HR></blockquote>If it was just as easy to choose righteousness as it was to choose to sin, wouldn't you think that someone would have managed to choose rightly?

Well, I believe that you hit the bullseye, simcha, when you said, "we are so full of love for ourselves that we fail." The carnal (or fleshly) person is always busy satisfying his carnal (or fleshly) body. This is the natural man. Consider for a moment children: <UL><li>Their initial purpose in life is to satisfy their fleshly desires: they cry when they are hungry, because their flesh is telling them that it needs food; they cry when they are wet, because their flesh is telling them that it is uncomfortable and cold, etc.<li>What does a toddler learn?<UL><li>No! (That figures . . . how many times are they told "no" during the course of a typical day?)</li><li>Mine! (It does take long for a child to get selfish)</ul><li>And so it goes, as a child grows older, he finds new ways to please his flesh . . .</li></ul>And, if you can find one consistancy in scripture regarding this topic, it is that the flesh is weak, the flesh will not choose to follow Yahweh's laws . . .<BLOCKQUOTE>1 John 2:16 KJV<HR>For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.<HR></blockquote>For every scripture that appears to say that man has a free will, there are many more that clearly state man's condition of being a servant to sin.<BLOCKQUOTE>John 8:34 KJV<HR>[Yeshua] answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant (or slave) of sin.<HR></blockquote><BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 6 KJV<HR>[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [17] But G-d be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.<HR></blockquote>We know that a slave does not have a totally free will; he must follow the will of his master. There are other scriptures that indicate that man is a prisoner of his flesh. We know that a prisoner does not have a totally free will; he must follow the will of his keeper. The slave and the prisoner are both given choices, but always within the confines of their master/keeper's will. The natural man is given choices, too. The choice he is given is: "Which sins will you choose to do?" Not one natural man (no, not one) will always choose to perform righteous; therefore, the natural man is a slave to sin--he just gets to choose which sins he is going to perform.

All this having been said, how do you think that mankind's slavery to sin fits into Yahweh's plan?

**simcha** · 03-06-2002, 06:24 AM

Hyssop,

Just as the Israelites had trouble leaving Egypt behind, we have the same problem. We are slaves, whether to sin or to Hashem. There would be no free will if we did not have choices. For there to be choices, we have to have that desire to sin.

Free will is a term that I could only find one time in scripture.

Philemon 1:10 I appeal to you for my child, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment, Onesimus,
11 who formerly was useless to you, but now is useful both to you and to me.
12 And I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart,
13 whom I wished to keep with me, that in your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel;
14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will

If we did not have the urge to sin along with the desire not to sin, it would be compulsion, not free will. However, we are no longer a slave to sin. Our hearts through Messiah are set on being a slave to Hashem. We are in the process of learning how, just like the Israelites were in the process during their journey out of Egypt.

Have a wonderful day!!!!!

Simcha

**hyssop** · 03-11-2002, 12:06 PM

Simcha,

Sorry for the delayed response, I did not see your message for a couple of days.

In your last post, you pointed out a verse in the Bible that mentions "free will." Please don't misunderstand me, I believe that Hashem gives us many choices between which we can exercise our "free will" and choose our course of action. In the verses that you quoted, Paul wanted to send Onesimus to Philemon and was checking with Philemon to make sure that it was okay with him. Paul wanted Philemon to accept Onesimus of his own "free will" rather than having the situation forced upon him. There are many other scriptures that mention things that we can do of our own volition, but that does not necessarily mean that we can choose (in our natural state) not to sin.

And I think that you and I, for the most part, agree that this is so. Just as you said, "We are slaves, whether to sin or to Hashem." The natural man is a slave to sin, and the spiritual man is a slave to Hashem.
<BLOCKQUOTE>1 Cor 15 KJV<HR>[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the L-rd from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.<HR></blockquote>I think that you would agree that there has been no one (apart from Meshiach) that has exercised their "free will" to do nothing but righteousness all of their lives . . . and, that there will be no one in the future that will do so. Man is very predictable, isn't he? Paul said that the first man is of the earth, earthy. Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh." Adam was a natural man--he had no more of a concept of right and wrong than a young child who has never been repromanded for the first time. Adam and Eve were flesh, and it was inevitable that they would follow the desires of the flesh rather than the commandment. It was Hashem's plan that they learn that sin is bad and something to be totally avoided; that is the lesson that Hashem wants us all to learn.

**Glori** · 10-02-2002, 05:22 PM

Cook,

Concerning the matter of those that are in Messiah being without sin; Paul's writtings were not obscure by accident. God calls us to righteousness and provided the Spirit via his word(Jn.6.63) as the way for us to acheive that righteousness. If a person looks to justify the sinful state, they fulfill Luke 8.13; But if a person has adorned that doctrine of God(Titus 2.10), and put on the Lord Yeshua Messiah(Rom13.14) they then fulfill 1 John 2.6, but it is not person that doesn't sin, it is the divine spirit that is in them. 2 Cor.4.7 "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power is of God and not of ourselves". God would not have called us to "be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect"(Matt.5.48) if he had not prepared the way for that to happens(Heb.12.23). Those that don't think they can be made perfect, can't be.

Glori

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