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**Visitor** · 11-19-2002, 03:18 PM

CHAPTER TWELVE

1. One should not entertain the notion that in the Era of Moshiach any element of the natural order will be nullified, or that there will be any innovation in the work of creation. Rather, the world will continue according to its pattern.

Although Yeshayahu [Yeshayahu 11:6] states, "The wolf will dwell with the lamb, and the leopard will lie down with the young goat," these [words] are an allegory and a riddle. They mean that Israel will dwell securely together with the wicked gentiles who are likened to wolves and leopards, as in the verse [Yirmeyahu 5:6], "A wolf of the deserts despoils them, a leopard watches over their cities." [In this era, all nations] will return to the true faith and no longer plunder or destroy. Instead, at peace with Israel, they will eat that which is permitted, as it is written [Yeshayahu 11:7], "The lion shall eat straw like the ox."

Similarly, other prophecies of this nature concerning Moshiach are analogies. In the Era of the King Moshiach, everyone will realize what was implied by these metaphors and allusions.

2. Our Sages taught: [Berachos 34b] "There will be no difference between the current age and the Era of Moshiach except [our emancipation from] subjugation to the [gentile] kingdoms."

The simple meaning of the words of the prophets appears to imply that the war of Gog and Magog [Yechezkal ch. 38] will take place at the beginning of the Messianic age. Before the war of Gog and Magog, a prophet will arise to rectify Israel's conduct and prepare their hearts [for the Redemption], as it is written: [Malachi 3:23] "Behold, I am sending you Eliyah(u) [6] [before the advent of the great and awesome Day of G-d]."

He will not come [in order] to declare the pure, impure, nor to declare the impure, pure; nor [will he come in order] to disqualify the lineage of those presumed to be of flawless descent, nor to validate lineage which is presumed to be blemished. Rather, [he will come in order] to establish peace in the world; as [the above prophecy] continues [Malachi 3:24], "He will bring back the hearts of the fathers to the children."

Some of the Sages say that Eliyahu will appear [immediately] before the coming of Moshiach.

All these and similar matters cannot be [clearly] known by man until they occur, for they are undefined in the words of the prophets. Even the Sages have no established tradition regarding these matters, beyond what is implied by the verses; hence there is a divergence of opinion among them.

In any case, neither the sequence of these events nor their precise details are among the fundamental principles of the faith. One should not occupy himself at length with the aggadot and midrashim that deal with these and similar matters, nor should he deem them of prime importance, for they bring one to neither the awe nor the love [of G-d].

Similarly, one should not try to calculate the appointed time [for the coming of Moshiach]. Our Sages declared: [Sanhedrin 97b] "May the spirits of those who attempt to calculate the final time [of Mashiach's coming] expire!" Rather, one should await [his coming] and believe in the general conception of the matter, as we have explained.

3. During the Era of the King Moshiach, once his kingdom has been established and all of Israel has gathered around him, the entire [nation's] line of descent will be established on the basis of his words, through the prophetic spirit which will rest upon him. As it is written [Loc. cit., v. 3], "He shall sit as a refiner and purifier."

He will purify the lineage of the Levites first, stating that "This one is a priest of defined lineage" and "This one is a Levite of defined lineage." Those whose lineage he does not recognize will be relegated to the status of Israelites. This is implied by the following verse: [Ezra 2:63] "The governor said to them, '[They shall not eat of the most holy things] until a priest arises [who will wear] the Urim and Tumim.'" From this verse one can infer that the genealogy of those presumed to be of unquestioned [priestly and levitical] lineage will be traced by means of the prophetic spirit, and those found to be of such lineage will be made known.

He will define the lineage of the Israelites according to their tribe alone; i.e., he will make known each person's tribal origin, stating that "This one is from this tribe" and "This one is from another tribe." However, concerning a person who is presumed to be of unblemished lineage, he will not state that "He is illegitimate," or "He is of slave lineage," for the law rules that once a family has become intermingled [within the entire Jewish people], they may remain intermingled.

4. The Sages and prophets did not yearn for the Messianic Era in order that [the Jewish people] rule over the entire world, nor in order that they have dominion over the gentiles, nor that they be exalted by them, nor in order that they eat, drink and celebrate. Rather, their aspiration was that [the Jewish people] be free Ito involve themselves] in Torah and its wisdom, without anyone to oppress or disturb them, and thus be found worthy of life in the World to Come, as we explained in Hilchos Teshuvah.

5. In that Era there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor competition, for good things will flow in abundance and all the delights will be as freely available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be solely to know G-d. The Jews will therefore be great sages and know the hidden matters, and will attain an understanding of their Creator to the [full] extent of human potential; as it is written [Yeshayahu 11:9], "For the world will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the ocean bed."
FOOTNOTES
In the original Hebrew, HaMelech HaMoshiach (lit., "the anointed king"); i.e., the Messianic King.]
In the original Hebrew, the word here translated "anointed [king]" is simply HaMoshiach (lit. "the anointed one"); i.e., the Messiah. It is used interchangeably with the earlier phrase.]
At this point, before being censored by medieval Christian authorities, the Rambam's original text continued: "...and save Israel from the hand's of Esav's descendants. This and two other such deletions have been copied verbatim in these footnotes from the celebrated Yemenite manuscript in the hands of Chacham Yosef Kapach of Jerusalem. (See footnotes 4 and 5, below.)]
At this point, the uncensored original text continued as follows: "Whoever adds to [the mitzvoth] or detracts from them, or misinterprets the the Torah, implying that the mitzvos are not intended to be understood literally, is surely a wicked imposter and a heretic."
The whole of the following passage was deleted from most of the editions published since the Venice edition of 1574.
"If he did not succeed to this degree or he was killed, he surely is not [the redeemer] promised by the Torah. [Rather,] he should be considered as all the other proper and legitimate kings of the Davidic dynasty who died. G-d only caused him to arise in order to test the multitude. As it is written [Daniel 11:35], "Some of the wise men will stumble, to purge, to refine, and to clarify, until the appointed time, for it is yet to come."

"Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Moshiach and was executed by the court was also spoken of in Daniel's prophecies [Daniel 11:14], "The renegades among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble."

"Can there be a greater stumbling block than [Christianity]? All the prophets spoke of Moshiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior, who would gather their dispersed ones and strengthen their [observance of] the mitzvos. In contrast [the founder of Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd."

"Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for [to paraphrase Yeshayahu 55:8] His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts our thoughts. [Ultimately,] all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite [i.e. Mohammed] who arose after him will only serve to pave the way for the coming of Moshiach and for the improvement of the entire world, [motivating the nations] to serve G-d together, as it is written [Zephaniah 3:9], "I will make the peoples pure of speech so that they will all call upon the Name of G-d and serve Him with one purpose."

"How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with talk of [the supposed] Messiah, as well as of the Torah and the mitzvos. These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: "These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time." Others [i.e. the Moslems] say: "Implied in the commandments are hidden concepts that cannot be understood simply; the Messiah has already come and revealed them."

"When the true Messiah king will arise and prove successful, his [position becoming] exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage; their prophets and ancestors cause them to err."

The name of the prophet is occasionally spelled, as in this verse, without the final letter vav.

**simchat_torah** · 11-20-2002, 11:49 AM

Shalom Visitor!

I truly appreciated your posts... that is until the final quotes in the last post.

Of course, I don't mind debating in this forum, it is open to all points of points of view! Absolutely!!!

However, when you disagree with me, be prepared to prove it! ROFLOL...

Anywho....

The two posts are great, and have a lot of very good insight in them. Yet, I must diverge on the quotes you had at the end of the second post. I am glad that you did not try to include the quotes as part of whatever the source is of the halachic rulings of the messiah. Well, onto the specifics...

"Can there be a greater stumbling block than [Christianity]? All the prophets spoke of Moshiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior, who would gather their dispersed ones and strengthen their [observance of] the mitzvos. In contrast [the founder of Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd."

I agree with the first sentace! Christianity has truly been a stumbling block. They have hidden the messiah inside of a wall of anti-Torah theology. They have hidden him within a confine of paganism. Yet, this is not his true abode, no. Y'shua was the anti-thesis of Christianity in many many ways.

However, I would have to diverge on the second sentance...
"In contrast [the founder of Christianity] caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the L-rd."

This is a rather difficult statement to address. My first problem is that I do not see Y'shua (moshiach ben yosef) to be the founder of christianity. I would not even accuse Sha'ul (paul) of this. No, christianity was created after the first century. It had it's beginning roots before Constantine, but upon his capitolization of those roots, it was birthed into it's own religion. With Y'shua, and Sha'ul too, the first believers in Y'shua as Moshiach were a Jewish sect.

In fact, Y'shua himself was a Jew, lived as a Jew, and taught very strict Torah observance. Nothing within the writings of his words have anything in common with the accusations of the quote above. He did not alter the Torah, tell others to serve another g-d, ect. No. He continually told his followers to follow the Torah, and to server HaShem FULLY!!!

I CHALLENGE YOU THIS >>>>>
Find just once... JUST ONCE where Y'shua is quoted as telling his followers to serve another g-d, or for them to disobey the Torah, or any of the accusations of the above quote.

It CANNOT be done!!!!
I garuntee!

Even purely Jewish Sages of our times have discovered this to be true!

Don't take my word for it... read these:

==============================================
"If the many sayings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels which express his devotion to the Torah have even a grain of historical truth in them, then the charge of 'perverting the people' is just as unthinkable as that of 'blasphemy' (Mk 14:64; Mt 26:65), which none of the four Gospels show him committing. For neither his claim to be the Messiah (Mk 14:61 ff.), nor the usurpation of 'divine sonship' (Mt 26:63 ff.) are considered blasphemy or capital offences in Jewish law."

---Pinchas Lapide
"Israelis, Jews and Jesus", trans. 1979 by Doubleday & Company, Inc., pg. 47

"It will seem paradoxical to the Christian that the Jew can learn from Jesus how to pray, the true sense of the Sabbath, how to fast, the meaning of the kingdom of heaven and the last judgment. The open-minded Jew is always deeply impressed by Jesus' opinions, and he understands that here is one Jew speaking to other Jews."

---David Flusser
"Inwiefern kann Jesus fur Juden eine Frage sien?", in Concilium, X, no. 10 (Oct. 1974), p. 598

"Jesus was a Jew, Hebrew of Hebrews. Whatever I believe with respect to the imputed miracle of his birth, his mother, Mary, was a Jewish woman. He was reared and taught as a Jew. He worshipped in the synagogue. He spoke no language save Hebrew...Jesus did not teach or wish to teach a new religion."

---Rabbi Stephen Wise
"Challenging Years: The Autobiography of Stephen Wise (New York: Putnam, 1949), p. 281

"Jesus of Nazareth not only observed the law of Moses but also the statutes of the rabbis. If any of his recorded words or deeds seem at first glance to run counter to this, that impression quickly fades. If we carefully examine his life, we find everything about it in complete agreement not only with the Scriptures but also with tradition."

---Moses Mendelssohn (1729-86)
"Jerusalem" (Leipzig, 1843), p. 357

"The founder of Christianity rendered a double benefit to the world. On the one hand, he used all his power to reinforce the Torah of Moses, for none of our wise men ever placed greater emphasis on the eternal binding force of God's teaching. On the other hand, he did the Gentiles a great service - if only they wouldn't thwart his noble intention, as certain blockheads have done, by not grasping the true sense of the Gospels - in that he did away with idolatry, freed them from the service of idols, and obliged them to observe the seven commandments of Noah...and in fact he tried to make them perfect by means of a moral teaching which is still more demanding than the Torah of Moses."

---Rabbi Oscar Z. Fasman
"Seder Olam Raba-we-Sutta (Hamburg, 1757), pp. 35 ff.
==============================================

Again, I emphasize my challenge... find just one... yes, just one... place where Y'shua condoned paganism, or said to abolish the Torah.

I am curious if you can fulfill this challenge. Many great scholars in the past have not been able to meet this challenge.

I would then pose, that if this challenge can not be met, then the quotes at the end of your last post would be null and void.

Finally, I would also take opposition to the following quote as well:
"These matters have been spread among many spiritually insensitive nations, who discuss these matters as well as the mitzvos of the Torah. Some of them [i.e. the Christians] say: "These commandments were true, but are not in force in the present age; they are not applicable for all time."

Again, I would have to point out that this is speaking of the christian faith, a perverted view of who Y'shua was and what he taught. You can clearly see this is true when you read the above citations of Rabbinical scholars as they point out that Y'shua did not nullify the Torah, but upheld it... probably better than any Jew ever has.

Shalom,
Japheth.

**Visitor** · 11-21-2002, 01:11 AM

I cant post fully at this time, but not a word was of my own. The entire thing was written by Rambam and is the halachah. The later quotes are given as footnotes merely because the church edited them out so they are not in the standard printed text but are part of the original.

I did not see one quote by anyone who is close to as authoritative as Rambam given by you. Most do not even seem to be Orthodox and have no halachic significance whatsoever. But more later.

**simchat_torah** · 11-21-2002, 01:56 AM

"I did not see one quote by anyone who is close to as authoritative as Rambam given by you."

Depends on what you claim to be authoritative.

Dr. Fluesser is one of the leading scholars that teaches at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, the most noted Jewish university/Yehsiva.

That one alone should be enough, but every single individual quoted is a great scholar in their own right. All of them are highly respected, maybe not Rabam, but some of the most respected of Jewish scholars.

"...but not a word was of my own."

I also understand that. I was glad that you did seperate the quoted material from the rest of the article none the less.

"... and have no halachic significance whatsoever."

First, I never made the claim that they all did, albeit some did have either an influence on halacha or directly wrote various halachic decisions, but I was merely refuting the ideas presented in the end quotes, which were not a part of your halachic presentation as well. Your quotes were not halachic rulings, and thus I addressed them scholarly as such.

Shalom,
Japheth.

**simchat_torah** · 11-21-2002, 02:10 AM

None the less, I am still interested in hearing the results and conclusions you draw from the challenge I have issued.

**Trevis** · 12-31-2014, 07:25 AM

In the days of the Moshiach, all of Israel will be gathered to Israel were they will dwell in safety forever. “Then Hashem, your G-d, will bring back your captivity and have mercy upon you, and He will gather you in from all the peoples to which Hashem, your G-d, has scattered you. If your dispersed will be at the ends of heaven, from there Hashem, your G-d, will gather you in and from there He will take you. Hashem, your G-d, will bring you to the Land that your forefathers possessed and you shall possess it.” D’varim (Duet) 30:3-5

“He will raise a banner for the nations and assemble the castaways of Israel; and He will gather in the dispersed ones of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 11:12

”He will choose Israel again and grant them rest upon their land...The nations will take them and bring them to their place” Yeshayahu 14:1,2

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