Spiritual Fulfillment of Torah

[hyssop]

<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Matt 5 (KJV)</font><HR>[17]<FONT COLOR=RED> Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. </font>[18]<FONT COLOR=RED> For verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.</font><HR></blockquote>Yeshua said that He came to fulfill law (Torah). In fact, <U>ALL</u> Torah is to be fulfilled. There are those who feel that Yeshua fulfilled the Sabbath by observing it perfectly His entire life. I believe that thay would say that He also fulfilled the food laws by following them perfectly; interestingly enough, I think many of these same people also believe that Yeshua taught that the food laws no longer had to be observed (Matt 15:1-20).

Does anyone else sense that there is more to Yeshua's fulfillment of Torah than simply keeping it better than anyone else in a physical sense? Paul said in Romans 7:14 that the law is spiritual. We are physical, and we initially see the law as a list of physical do's and don'ts. However, there is far more to the law than a set of physical commands. There is another level--the spiritual. What do you think?

[Sojeru]

Ask the Pharisee's, the group that Hacham Shaul (paulos) was trained by and made a Rabbi under their direction by the ordination of His MAjesty Yeshuah.

The Pharisees have this teaching amoungst themselves. The Teaching of which you are asking the people here.
But you call yourselves Tzaddikim as in the Tzaddukim and they threw away anything that was from the Oral tradition which was exclusively Pharisaic.

This teaching that the TORAH is Spiritual is Pharisaic and Oral, and it is not written anywhere in the Written Torah that the Sadducees upheld literal interpretion too.
So, you who call yourself tzaddikim, why do you hold onto a pharisaic Oral Tradition?

Does not seem very sadducaic to me.

shalom u'brachot

[hyssop]

Shalom, Sojeru:

I do not claim to be a Sadducee. You are likely correct about their not seeing the spiritual; they did not believe in the resurrection--they were wrong. I believe as they do about some things, and some Sadducaic doctrines (such as the denial of the existance of angels) I reject.

I also agree with much of what the Pharisees believed; however, as Yeshua said: "<FONT COLOR=RED>do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.</font>"

I question whether the Pharisees still sit in Moses' seat. I've got to wonder about any group that claims G~d-given knowledge of Torah and then seem to ignore Torah commands concerning the waving of the sheaf of the firstfruits and the observance of Shavuot.

My hope is to be found a Tzaddik--one who lives by faith. My prayer is that our heavenly father help me to be a good and faithful servant.

[hyssop]

Now, back to spiritual fulfillment of Torah:<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Lev 1 (KJV)</font><HR>[12]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And [the priest] shall cut it into his pieces, with his head and his fat: and the priest shall lay them in order on the wood that <I>is</i> on the fire which <I>is</i> upon the altar: </font>[13]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> But <B><U>he shall wash the inwards and the legs with water</u></b>: and the priest shall bring <I>it</i> all, and burn <I>it</i> upon the altar: it <I>is</i> a burnt sacrifice, and offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the L~rd.</font><HR></blockquote>So, how did Yeshua fulfill this piece of Torah? Did He do a better job of washing His sacrifice than anyone else? I'm not thinking along those lines . . .

[Robin]

Was not the house left desolate?

I think Hyssop's original question as to the law being spiritual is a very good one and I look forward to reading the discussion. But as to the peripheral conversation about Moses' seat, I think insight into that can be found in Hebrews 3.




1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man ; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Robin

[Sojeru]

The waving of the sheaf is not ignored at all.
Maybe to you- maybe you dont understand pharisaic doctrine.
But it is never ignored.

[hyssop]

Sorry, Sojeru. I should not have used the word "ignored" but, rather, "misinterpretted." As I see it, the Pharisees have misinterpretted when the wave sheaf is to be presented (Lev 23:7). The Rabbis have determined that the wave sheaf should be presented on the day after the High Sabbath (Nisan 15) and not the day following the weekly sabbath, Sunday (waving the firstfruits can fall on any day of Nisan 15-21). While this may not initially seem very important, this mistake causes the Pharisaic observance of Pentecost to be incorrectly established about 6 of every 7 years, and it makes me question their ability to accurately interpret the difficult passages of Torah.

[Sojeru]

Sorry I havent been on for a while,

Hyssop you said:
I question whether the Pharisees still sit in Moses' seat. I've got to wonder about any group that claims G~d-given knowledge of Torah and then seem to ignore Torah commands concerning the waving of the sheaf of the firstfruits and the observance of Shavuot.

ok, well
1.
the term the "seat of Moses" is always used in Middrashim...
when was the Middrash written?
Not in the time of the Merkarbah, the middrash was "written" after.
It is hardly ever mentioned at all, only if it is mentioned, in any other pharisaic writtings save the middrashim.

ok.
2.
You said you question whether the pharisees still sit in the seat of Moshe?
because, as you said in your clarification:

As I see it, the Pharisees have misinterpretted when the wave sheaf is to be presented (Lev 23:7). The Rabbis have determined that the wave sheaf should be presented on the day after the High Sabbath (Nisan 15) and not the day following the weekly sabbath, Sunday (waving the firstfruits can fall on any day of Nisan 15-21). While this may not initially seem very important, this mistake causes the Pharisaic observance of Pentecost to be incorrectly established about 6 of every 7 years, and it makes me question their ability to accurately interpret the difficult passages of Torah.


Ok, now I must ask you--
wasn't this practice of counting Omer, of establishing the day of Pesach on the 15 as you say long practiced by the pharisees before His Majesty Yeshuah?

YET, who is it that makes the claim of whom being the authority of scripture?
you are the one that says that you must question if they still sit in the seat of Moses...
MOST OBVIOUSLY, your saying that their interpretation was correct at one point in time- did this change from 2000 yrs ago?
well, history and proof within our own bible , especially in the Talmud and "NT" shows otherwise.

So the pharisaic practice was always the same
and it wasnt the pharisees that made the first claim of the rabbis sitting in the seat of Moses
BUT it was His MAJESTY YESHUAH...
so for you to negate this will have me question what you think...

it is either that this was a late writting- a fraudists interpolation into the greek texts to make it more pharisaic and give praise to the pharisees.

you dont believe in the passage because of it

or your interpretation is also flawed as of the saddusees, karaits, and christianity (all of these being somewhat modern day sadducaic sects)

Yeshuah himself said
The pharisees and the scribes sit on the seat of Moses...
it wasnt until the 7th century that the Jews actually wrote down anything reffering to the "seat of Moshe"
yet, the way they practiced from the 1st century was the same as the practice of the 7th....sooooo, what are you saying?

[hyssop]

Welcome back, Sojeru.

Sooooo, what I am saying is this:

I believe that almost anyone who takes an unbiased look at Lev 23 as it relates to the wave sheaf and the counting of Pentecost will come to the conclusion that the Pharisees are wrong.

In Yeshua's time, Pentecost was not calculated according to the current method. That did not happen until after the destruction of the Temple. It's simple. The Pharisees changed it. In my opinion, that's not a whole lot different than Constantine changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. While I place a lot more stock in the Pharisees' opinions concerning Law than I do Constantine's, I do not feel bound to an authority whose teachings conflict with Torah.

[Sojeru]

Hi hyssop, thanks for the welcome

ok,
I understand what you are saying...
but it has no stance.
You see, the way that the Pharisees observed pesach (this is the one that atarts every disagrement) was always the same.
This is why I can easily say that the Pharisees werent involved with the capturing of His Majesty Yeshuah and the illegal beit Din.

You will also notice that when the Sadducees and the Pharisees were speaking on the subject- the pharisees wanted a halachic reason to give him over to the gentiles while the sadducees said "it was expedient that one man should die for the people".
The pharisees were going by Oral tradition- sadducees didnt care for oral tradition.

now, the practice of Pesach within the pharisees was always the same- the way they counted the Omer was always the same.
Only thing is, in this case of time- each groups sabbath was the same day to each groups method of interpreting...maybe which is why you find that todays pharisaism and that of back then is different.
However, I can faithfully say that the halacha is the same.thus, the way to interpret is the same.

so, the counting of omer, and etc...all the same as of our forefathers.
if you wish to lean on your own understanding as the ancient sadducees did, and like how the christians do now...thats fine too

shalom u'brachot

[Sojeru]

the unbiased look

Anyone that reads the story of King David will see that he was an adulterer.
But that was not the case.
Because the Torah demands that an adulterer should be stoned along with the partner.

Especially a man at such a degree of stature as David.

so what happened?
well without the Oral tradition a person will never understand what really happened.

a person who looks at the stories of the sons of David will realise that one of his sons commited incest and that by the response of his half-sister saying, "go to my father the king and he will not keep me from you." shows that incest was allowed despite the commandment in the Torah.

that is where the fault lies- not within the Torah, but by those who do not know how to read it!
The Pharisees are correct in their halacha.
not the sadducees
not the karaites
not the tzaddikim

if you can prove to me otherwise- this will be my mind until then.

[hyssop]

Traditions of Men

Yeshua asked the Pharisees in Matthew 15:3, "<FONT COLOR=RED>Why do ye also transgress the commandment of G~d by your tradition?</font>" He went on to say that they, <U>through tradition</u>, nullified G~d's commandments (Torah). Could He have been referring to their Oral tradition? Sure.

Sojeru, you have indicated that the Pharisees haven't changed. I agree. Yeshua quoted Isaiah in Matthew 15:9, and it is as true today as it was nearly two thousand years ago: "<FONT COLOR=RED>. . . in vain they (the scribes and Pharisees) do worship me, teaching <I>for</i> doctrines the commandments of men.</font>"

We've got a couple of choices here: we can continue to dance around the subject at hand, or we can take a hard look at what the Torah commands concerning the wave sheaf. Frankly, I'm not a real good dancer.

[Sojeru]

Hi Hyssop,

again, excuse me for not being able to respond quickly.

I must say that your interpretation of the literal reading of Matthew 15:1-9 is terrible.
You interpret it as a Christian, reading it with no background knowldge...

It is to my belief
by the way it is stated that it is speaking of a peculiar group of Pharisees.

It says that there was Pharisees from Jerusalem.
Now there were two houses of Pharisaism, both of them correct in their intepreting but needs to be understood.
I really do not want to delve greatly into everything of what these groups were.
but it was Hillel and Shammai schools

Hillels school is based in Beth-lechem
while
Shammai's school is based in Jerusalem

Hillel lineage is also of David through Jeconiah
The Same as His Majesty Yeshuah
The Same as Hillel the younger (Dr.Luke)

Now, pharisees from both schools can be in Jerusalem for Jerusalem and Bet lechem is only about 5 miles apart.
but it is my belief that it was the students from the school of Shammai
because of the way they confronted His Majesty.

They approached him with charging him about some of his disciples.
"why do they not wash hands trangressing the tradition of the elders"

the school of Shammai had the view that G-D moves with strict Justice
while the school of Hillel views that G-D moves with Loving kindness
which means that Loving kindness is ontop of G-Ds strict Justice.

thing is during the time of Shammai and Hillel there was a transition.
Before this time people could stand up to G-Ds strict justice, but, now was needed his loving kindness on top of his strict justice.

now.

His Majesty turned this group of Pharisees away saying,
Why are you publicly criticising these of new faith? this is wrong to do by Halacha for one- and another, I know that you are Shammai's students- you should know about this transition of Loving Kindness for people will no longer be able to stand up to it anymore- and it is already happening, thus these disciples need time- they cannot dive into everything at once.
Also, you know that these noachites, going through the process of conversion do not have the responsibilit of washing hands...so again, they need time to get there.
So instead of critisizing them- you should just go and focus on some of the problems that you have.
Being that you should focus on Righteousness [TZEDAKAH] charity-generosity.

this is the literal reading of Matthew.
But!
this is not what matthew wants to say because his level of literature is Homiletic
and i do not know how to interpret Middrash just yet, but I am learning, maybe I'll be able to tell you what Matthew Means by this Homily he wrote.

shalom u'brachot

[Sojeru]

CHIRP! CHIRP! CHIRP! CHIRP!

Crickets seem to have taken over these forums alot!

[hyssop]

CHIRP! . . . (music playing) . . . CHIRP!

Sojeru,

If you wish to continue dancing, you're going to have to dance by yourself (and, perhaps, the crickets ).

You claim that I've misinterpretted Matt 15. You are entitled to your opinion.

The fact of the matter is that your Pharisees have changed Torah. I have chosen to follow Torah rather than the traditions of men and see no benefit of further discussion . . . unless, of course, you care to enlighten me regarding the Pharisees' misinterpretation of Lev 23.<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Lev 23 (KJV)</font><HR>[16]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Even <B>unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath</b> shall ye number fifty days . . . </font><P>. . .</p>[21]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And ye shall proclaim <B>on the selfsame day</b>, <I>that</i> it may be <B>an holy convocation</b> unto you: ye shall do no servile work <I>therein it shall be</i> <B>a statute for ever</b> in all your dwellings throughout your generations.</font><HR></blockquote>The Pharisees have chosen not to count Shavuot such that it falls on the day after a sabbath as the Law requires. You want to discuss misinterpretation of scripture? Fine. Start there.