Tzaddikim Discussion Forums
Tzaddikim

Go Back   Tzaddikim Discussion Forums > Jewish Roots > Jewish Theology

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-18-2004, 05:11 AM
Echad_Mi_Yodea's Avatar
Echad_Mi_Yodea Echad_Mi_Yodea is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Seattle area, Washington
Posts: 3
What the Rabbis have said...

Who Do The Rabbis Say Mashiach Will Be?

Until the 11th century commentaries of Rashi, Isaiah 53's 'Suffering Servant' was understood to mean Messiah *not* Israel. Scripture gives opposing views of Messiah; Messiah was to be the ruler of the world, yet Messiah was also to suffer for the sins of mankind. Early rabbis, unable to conceive of one Messiah fulfilling both roles, often relied on the 'two-Messiah' theory: one Messiah was Messiah ben Yosef, who suffered; and the other, Messiah ben David, who ruled, and would establish the promised messianic kingdom. Even at the time of Yeshua(Jesus), it was the hope of King Messiah ben David that warmed the oppressed Israelites' hearts -- a king who would overthrow Roman rule and liberate Israel. This was certainly the hope of Yeshua's disciples as well. But Yeshua revealed to them with Scripture that Messiah was to suffer first. While we all look hopefully for the arrival of King Messiah, we must honestly deal with Scripture teaching a Suffering Messiah, since it is only through Messiah's sufferings that man finds complete atonement and justification from G-d. Yeshua very clearly fulfilled the Suffering Servant passage of Isaiah 52/53. But for this reason, modern Judaism now claims the passage isn't Messianic, but instead, is about Israel. An honest reading of the text will show the passage cannot be about Israel. Below we will look at earlier rabbinic thought which proves that Isaiah 53 was previously understood by Judaism as a messianic prophecy -- that Judaism originally expected a 'suffering' Messiah:

"Messiah son of Joseph was slain, as it is written, "They shall look unto me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son" * Zech xii 10 (Suk. 52a)

"The Holy One gave Messiah the opportunity to save souls but to be severely chastised: and forthwith the Messiah accepted the chastisements of love, as is written, "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted." And when Israel is sinful, the Messiah seeks mercy upon them, as it is written, "By his stripes we were healed," and "He carried the sins of many and made intercession for the trangressors.""* (Bereshith Rabbah, Rabbi Moshe Hadershan)

"the word 'man' in the passage refers to the Messiah, the son of David as it is written, "Behold the man whose name is Zemah"; there Jonathan interprets, Behold the man Messiah; as it is said "a man of pains and known to sickness." * (Midrash Thanhumi, Rabbi Nahman)

Rabbinical Elijah the prophet quote: "Bear the suffering and punishment of thy Lord, with which he chastises thee for the sins of Israel, as it is written, 'He is pressed for our rebellion--crushed for our iniquities' until the end come." * (Midrash Cohen, BhM, 2:29)

The Talmud explains: "The Messiah---what is his name? Those of the house of Rabbi Yuda the saint say, the sick one, as it is said, 'Surely he had borne our sicknesses."* (Sanhedrin 98b)

"It is because of this future ordeal that David (prophetically) wept, saying My strength is dried up like a potsherd [Psalms 22:7]. At this hour, G-d will say to Him, Ephraim, My Righteous Messiah, didst Thou not agree before the creation to this? Now let Your sorrows be as My own sorrows.... At that Messiah answers, Now is My Spirit calmed for 'It is enough for a servant to be like master.'"** (Pesikta Rabbati Piska 36:142/Yalkut on Isaiah 60:1-2)

"Then He [My Servant Messiah] will become despised, and will cut off the glory of all the Kingdoms; they will be prostrate and mourning, like a man of pains, and like One destined for sickness; and as though the Presence of the Shekinah had been withdrawn from us, they will be despised, and esteemed not." ** (Targum Jonathan Isaiah 53:3)

"And when Israel is sinful, the Messiah seeks for mercy upon them, as it is written, "By His stripes we were healed, and He carried the sins of many; and made intercession for the transgressors."** (B'reshith Rabbah)

Referring to Zech 12:10-12, "R. Dosa says: '(They will mourn) over the Messiah who will be slain.' " **(B. Suk. 52a; also Y. Suk. 55b)

A late 10th century commentary of Isaiah 53 reads:

"As for myself, I am inclined with Benjamin of Nehavend, to regard it as alluding to the Messiah ... In the first instance that the Messiah will only reach his highest degree of honor after long and severe trials; and secondly, that these trials will be sent upon him as a kind of sign, so that, if he finds himself under the yoke of misfortunes while remaining pious in his actions, he may know that he is the designated one." *(Yepheth ben All)*

The Zohar:

"The Messiah, on his part, enters a certain Hall in the Garden of Eden, called the Hall of the Afflicted. There he calls for all the diseases and pains and sufferings of Israel, bidding them settle on himself, which they do. And were it not that he thus eases the burden from Israel, taking it on himself, no one could endure the sufferings meted out to Israel on account of their neglect of the Torah. So Scripture says, " Surely our sickness did he bear"*** ... "As long as Israel dwelt in the Holy Land, the rituals and sacrifices removed all those diseases from the world; now the Messiah removes them from the children of the world."** (Zohar 2:212a)

Here are a few other things the Rabbis have said concerning Messiah:

The great mountain spoken of by the prophet Zechariah (4. 7) is no other than Messiah, Son of David, and he is called 'the Great Mountain,' because he towers above the Patriarchs, is greater than Moses, and is above the ministering angels. As Isaiah says (52. 10), 'Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.'--Midr. Tanchuma Toldos.

When King Solomon speaks of his 'beloved,' he usually means Israel the nation. In one instance he compares his beloved to a roe, and therein he refers to a feature which marks alike Moses and the Messiah, the two redeemers of Israel. just as a roe comes within the range of man's vision only to disappear from sight and then appear again, so it is with these redeemers. Moses appeared to the Israelites, then disappeared, and eventually appeared once more, and the same peculiarity we have in connexion with Messiah; He will appear, disappear, and appear again.--Numb. Rabba 11.

The fourteenth verse in the second chapter of Ruth is thus explained. 'Come thou hither' is the prediction of Messiah's kingdom. 'Dip the morsel in the vinegar,' foretells the agony through which Messiah will pass, as it is written in Isaiah (cap. 51), 'He was wounded for our sins, He was bruised for our transgressions.' 'And she set herself beside the reapers' predicts the temporary departure of Messiah's kingdom. 'And he reached her a parched corn' means the restoration of His kingdom.--Midr. Ruth 5.

The prophecy of Isaiah concerning Jerusalem, 'Behold, thy sons shall come from afar and thy daughters shall be nursed by thy side,' could not be hailed with the same satisfaction as the words of Zechariah, 'Behold, thy King cometh unto thee; he is just and having salvation, lowly and riding upon an ass.' This latter prophecy will bring it about that the daughter of Zion shall greatly rejoice in the Lord, her soul shall be joyful in her God.--Midr. Song of Songs 1.

Moses, the first redeemer, rode on an ass, gave the Israelites manna for food, and brought up the water. So also shall Messiah be seen riding on an ass (Zech. 9), shall bring down manna from on high (Ps. 70. 16), and cause the rivers of Judah to flow with water (Joel 4. 18).--Midr. Eccles. 1.

As you brought Me the perpetual light in the Temple, says God unto Israel, so will I bring unto you Him, Messiah, who is the personification of light, 'the sun of righteousness' promised through Malachi.--Midr. Tanchuma Tetzava.

The perpetual light in the Mishkan was typical of the light of King Messiah.--Levit. Rabba 31.

Seeing in his spirit of prophecy that the time would come when the Mish'kan (the Sanctuary) would cease to exist and the Shechinah dwell no more in Israel's midst, Moses was anxious to know by what means the sins of his people would then be expiated. The Almighty vouchsafed the information that He would choose a righteous man from their midst, and make him a Mish'ken (pledge) for them, and through him their sins would be forgiven.--Exod. Rabba 35.

'The sceptre shall not depart from Judah nor a lawgiver from between his feet until "Shiloh" come,' refers also to Messiah, who is to enlighten Israel on the words of the Torah, and point out the errors of the people. Rabbi Chanan, on the other hand, holds that the teaching of Messiah will not be addressed to Israel, whose knowledge of the law of God will be all-sufficient. Rather will his task be to instruct the Gentiles: in the words of the prophet Isaiah (11. 10), 'To him shall the Gentiles seek, and he shall assemble the outcast of Israel.'--Gen. Rabba 98.

Unlike the kings of this earth, God bestows some of His possessions and dignities upon beings of flesh and blood. He set Solomon upon His own throne (1 Chron. 29. 23). He caused Elijah to ride upon His own horse; that is to say, upon the storm and whirlwind. To Moses, He gave God's rod, and upon the head of Messiah He placed His own crown.--Exod. Rabba 8. and Tanchuma Voera.

'All your former redemptions,' God says to Israel, have been accomplished through the instrumentality of men, and were, consequently, not lasting in their effect. You were delivered from Egypt through Moses and Aaron; you were rescued out of the hands of Sisera by Deborah and Barak; from the power of Midian you were saved by Shamgar. I myself will be your last and your everlasting Redeemer.'--Tanchuma Achray.

The proper name of Messiah is Hashem Tzid'kenu- the Lord our righteousness.--Midr. Lament. 1.

~Echad
__________________
"And when Israel is sinful, the Messiah seeks for mercy upon them, as it is written, "By His stripes we were healed, and He carried the sins of many; and made intercession for the transgressors."** (B'reshith Rabbah)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-07-2004, 07:03 PM
hyssop's Avatar
hyssop hyssop is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 212
Well, it's been a long time since I've posted and there's been no activity here for weeks. So . . .

Welcome aboard, Echad . . . vgam ani yodea . . . m'at min ham'at

You mentioned the kings of this earth in your post. When I consider the kings of this earth, I can't help but think of the spiritual picture that the kings of the earth represent:
king = ruler
earth = material from which man was made: flesh

A spiritual king is one who rules over his flesh.

Mashiach did exactly that and so can those who are His.
__________________
Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

hyssop
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-22-2004, 12:22 PM
Sojeru Sojeru is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Diaspora, IL
Posts: 15
Send a message via AIM to Sojeru
This is exactly what the Rabbi's do and teach- Judaism is to master the material and the spiritual world.
__________________
OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-22-2004, 09:01 PM
hyssop's Avatar
hyssop hyssop is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 212
Welcome, Sojeru:

It's a pleasure to have you join us. How did you happen to find your way here?
__________________
Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

hyssop
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-22-2004, 09:55 PM
Robin Robin is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 46
with a different tagline

I've run into Sojeru before, I think.

Robin
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-23-2004, 10:55 AM
Sojeru Sojeru is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Diaspora, IL
Posts: 15
Send a message via AIM to Sojeru
Greetings Your Excellency "Hyssop",

you know me very well, if not you know about me.
And Robin you know of me too.

I was known as "Antotiyah" and now known as "Beseder" on Lo-Ammi

and I have known of the tzaddikim since he year 2000 when I was first invited to the forums of the Tzaddikim, which used to be lo-ammi, by Deanna.

I guess I have studied the traddition of this group tzaddikim which poses itself to be the tzaddukim(sadducees) and have decided to go to the sect of the Prushim whole heartedly.
__________________
OBEY YE THE SOFRIM (HAKHAMIM) and the PERUSHIM for they are the only ones given right to and power to interpret scripture. DO AS THEY TELL YOU but do not do as the Colored-Rabbis and colored pharisees tell you, for they are Painted!(Matt 23:1-3)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Space Provided By: 1&1