Do little children sin?

[Valid Name]

Increasing Transgression

Greetings Matthew!

Please bear with me!

What you are saying is that we are guilty of Adam's sin - Therefore we have trespassed just as he did - Because this sin is imputed to us.

Now Adam did give us a Gift exactly like Messiah gave us a gift. Adam gives us sin and death, Messiah gives Eternal life. Thanks Adam. So now, you sin, you die.

Now Paul says -

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

If we were guilty of Adam's sin, they would have sinned in the same likeness as Adam - We would have transgressed just as Adam did.

So this is why the Law was added, to MAKE US Transgressors:

Galatians 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.

It was Added because of Transgressions - And there had only been ONE Transgression before then - It was added to create more! We actually have an entire section in the forum dedicated to this!

The explanation that you give about the increase of the transgression does not make much sense. The Law does show us we are unrighteous, and it also makes us transgressors. How many Laws do you have to break to be a transgressor? One. Now if we had been a transgressor already, there would be no reason to Add the Law for the sake of Transgressions, nor to increase the offense of Adam, because we would already have Adam's offense imputed on us.

Peace,
Valid Name

[Robin]

Whoa! Back up!

Hey Fellas,

So are you saying that no one was held accountable for sins before Sinai? Ever read about the days of Noah? Ever read about Sodom and Gomorrah? Do we jump straight from Genesis 3 to Exodus 20? What about Exodus chapter 18? By what law was Moses judging the people in verse 16? How was the iniquity of the Canaanites full outside of the law? What about the Ninevites, outside the law?

It is true that the one sin of Adam brought in death, which would have continued to reign even in the absence of any more sins. But it certainly does not mean that there were not any more sins until Sinai or even that they were not imputed. People died for them as punishment. It's in the record. Death entered through Adam. Being a sinner has to do with knowledge and the will.

Love,
Robin

[Matthew23]

Hi Valid! After reading your post, I'm wondering: How is it that the people from Adam to Moses died? What "transgression" did they commit? Why does Paul say they died?

[Matthew23]

Hi Robin!

You make some excellent points. I'm not saying that the people from Adam to Moses never sinned. I'm just saying that the reason they died is because of the transgression of the "one man"... Adam.

Oh, another question for Valid: When do we receive our death sentence? After our first transgression?

[Robin]

more detail

Hi Matt,

I know the question was for Valid, but could you say what you mean by "death sentence"?

Thanks,
Robin

[Robin]

I'm just sayin'

Matt,

I mean, it just seems to me you could argue that the people in the days of Noah received a "death sentence" when they didn't repent. Ya' know?

Robin

[Matthew23]

clarification:

What I mean is: When is it determined that we will die? If we aren't born with sin on us, then when is the sin that causes our death upon us?

Then I'd like to know: Why do babies die? If the wages of sin is death, what sin causes them to be able to die?

Robin, I believe we are born with the death sentence, but G-d...(fill in the blank with John 3:16)

We are going to die, but "G-d has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18)

death comes with being born. life comes with being born again

matt

[Robin]

just being difficult

Matthew 23 wrote:

Without the Law, we would not know what righteousness is.

Matt, are you talking about the Sinai law?

Genesis 15:6 "And he (Abram) believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

I truly am just seeking further clarification to be sure we're all speaking of the same things here. Also, a little further clarification as to sin and death might be in order. It appears to me that you're making sin and death synonymous and using them interchangeably. That confuses me a little. I just can't enter the discussion really if I'm not quite sure what's been said thus far.

Valid/Searching/Brad/Scarlet/Parachute wrote:

It was added because of Transgressions-- And there had only been ONE Transgression before then--

I'm not at all sure I follow you on this. Not if you're talking about Sinai. Only one transgression between Eden and the wilderness?

Love,
Robin

[Matthew23]

Count it to us, Father...

Robin,

Yes, I'm talking about Sinai. I believe that's what Paul was talking about in Romans 5:20.

About Abram...

We, just like he was, are righteous.
Our righteousness is "counted to us" (grace) by faith, not by the works of the law- just like Abram.

About sin and death...

The two go hand in hand: Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death...
Death is the result of sin.

Another question for Valid/Brad/Scarlet/Searching/Parachute/BluesFan:
Why did Messiah die? What sin was on him? His own? Adam's? Or was it OURS?

I love you guys (and gals).

matt

[Robin]

Get ready!

Hey fellas,

Get ready! I have a whole week off and I'm ready for some discussion. Valid, you seem to have disappeared, which really disappoints me. I appreciate your going to all that trouble to get me registered here; I was hoping to talk to you more. Remember those ice cream coupons I told you about? I still have them, but I do seem to remember you said you would not withhold "such as you have." Didn't you?

Love,
Robin

[Valid Name]

Where's Waldo?

Howdy Robin,

Sorry - You may have the week off, but with all these folks keep coming in town, mine just gets busier! Gotta make the rounds you know! I can probably make a proper response tommorrow!

Peace,
Valid Name

[Valid Name]

Greetings Matthew,

I have to say that your avatar cracks me up now that I get to know you more. I can see you are pulling your hair out wondering what the heck is wrong with these people!

I do have to say, you do ask a lot of good questions, specifically why do babies die.

Back to Romans 5, people were dying between Adam and Moses not for their sin, but for Adams. He sinned, they would die. Now where there is no Law, there can not be a transgressor of the Law. I believe it would stand to reason that Babies would die because of Adam's sin. Could they understand the Law? Who would would make them a transgressor unfairly?

Let's look back into the Garden of Eden for a Moment. Adam and Eve had no Law but one, 'Do not eat of the Fruit.'

So basically, they could do whatever they wanted, even if it transgressed Torah, because there was nothing to Transgress, except for the one command they had.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil (lit: Naked) than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

We find Eve adding a command to what The Father gave her - Not to touch. But she touched, this was not her sin, it was when she ate. But she stole, she took what was not hers. She coveted The Father's wisdom in wishing to be like him. In essense, if she was given The Torah, she would have transgressed long before she ate.

Now I understand why you believe what you do. You believe that Adam's sin was imputed to us, like you believe Christ's righteousness is imputed to you.

If Adam's sin was imputed, why then does Paul in Romans 5 say that between Adam and Moses NO ONE sinned in the same way Adam did (ie, transgressed a Law)?

If the Wages of Sin is death, and Christ took your punishment which is death, why do you die?

Here at Tzaddikim we do not believe that Adam's sin was imputed, nor do we believe that Christ righteousness is imputed. You die for your own sin. This is why you die, it is not good to die because someone else sin, and this is why the Law was added, so that you die for your OWN sin. Thus you may also live in your own righteousness that is freely given to you.

Eventually we can talk about works, and how Abraham had faith and because of that, he did his works.

Peace,
Valid Name

[Robin]

Sin and Death are not synonymous!!!

Yes, yes. I am fully aware that no one is talking to me, but I'm listening in and just can't help but post when I feel led to do so. I still do strongly feel that there a confusion and a mixing of sin and death in this thread. A cause and effect relationship does not mean that the two relating factors are the same; in fact, it means they are not the same. I will spare you a syntax lesson here, but there are some things that need to be said.

Brad wrote:

....and this is why the Law was added, so that you die for your OWN sin.

In Romans 5, Paul is not saying that everyone is sinning because Adam sinned, but that everyone is dead because of Adam's sin. All those who are dead are sinning, but their sinning is not bringing in death like Adam's sin. Notice how sin and death are together and one in Adam's transgression, but not one and the same in mankind's transgression. After the entry of both sin and death through Adam, death can now reign where there is no sin or a broken law. Sin still needs the law because there can be no transgression where there is no law, but death reigns apart from sin and law. Death needed Adam's transgression in order to enter God's Kingdom and take away the life of God which Adam possessed, but death no longer needs a transgression like Adam's or any transgression in order to reign and take away mortal life. Notice that sin and death entered together then operated separately. Sin entered through disobedience and death entered through sin. Now sin will still need disobedience to reign, but death will no longer need sin in order to reign. In Adam's case, sin preceded death. Since Adam, death enters the individual through the corrupt seed so death precedes sin. I guess you could say, Matt, that sin (Adam's or ours) caused the death of Christ, but I don't see it that way. A very different and opposite cause is given for Adam's death and for Christ's death. One death results from sin, but the other death results from righteousness. He was obedient unto death. Death humbled Adam, but Christ "humbled Himself". Death conquered Adam and reigned over his offspring. BUT Christ conquered death. Yes! Yes! Yes!

Sin entered the human race by disobedience and continues within mankind by disobedience. But death entered once and reigns without any more disobedience. Now, as far as the law (any command of God) disobedience is necessary for sin to reign. This is how the law gives strength to sin. If there was no law to transgress, there could be no disobedience. The Sinai law is not the only law. In the early chapters of Romans, Paul is saying that everyone has a law even if he does not know Moses. But obeying or disobeying law has nothing to do, nothing to do, nothing to do with the reign of death brought in by Adam's transgression.

Now, that's my case, which I believe is scriptural, for sin and death not being synonymous. And that's not all I have to say on this thread, but I just wanted to say this part first. I'll post again later tonight. Not that Valid is listening to me.

Love,
Robin

[Robin]

Redemption from Death

Dear Valid and Matt and everyone else too,

Once sin and death are seen properly, the Passover Lamb in Redemption makes perfect sense. The Israelites were in Egypt not because of their own sin. They were in Egypt because they were born there. We were not in death because of our own sin. We were in death because we were born there. Because death entered with Adam's sin. The death of the passover lambs in Egypt, one per family, saved the life of the firstborn . The death of Christ, our Passover Lamb, one per family (Adam's) saved the life of the firstborn. Down the road in Exodus, we see an exchange of the firstborn for the tribe of Levi (plus some silver and gold). We are told in scripture that Jesus laid down His Life as a ransom and that He is the Passover Lamb. This means that His death was not His own death, but the death of another. The condemnation of death which is upon all mankind at his birth because of another (Adam) will pass upon another (Christ) and the justification of Life which is upon the redeemed (church) at spiritual birth is also because of another, our Passover Lamb. As a Passover Lamb, His death satisifies the death sentence of another. It does not satisfy the wrath of God. It satisfies the Love of God who spared Him not but freely gave Him for that very purpose. The salvation of the world through Jesus is through redemption, not forgiveness. The death from the fall was genetically passed on, a birth defect if you will, therefore not subject to pardon or forgiveness because it did not relate to behavior but to birth. A birth defect cannot be pardoned or forgiven. There must be a new birth (which is the resurrection that follows death.) Even an atonement will not take care of inherited death. Atonement saves us from the wrath within, not the death within.

Why do I go into all of this? Because there can be no discussion of sin and death and why babies die and whose sin causes what without understanding that Redemption relates to death and Atonement (which was instituted later after the redemption from Egypt) relates to sin. And it just seems to me that there is a mixing of the two in this thread. Valid, your assertion that the law was added so that all could sin after the similitude of Adam is just plain unscriptural. There certainly was law between Eden and Sinai; the scriptures speak of it.

Love,
Robin

[Valid Name]

Romans 5

Greetings Robin!

Thank you for the Reply! I surely am talking to you, and anyone else who passes through this way! Names refer to posts, not who can listen!

You gave a couple posts with much to talk about, once I am finished let me know if there is anything that I missed that you are concerened about!

I don't really have much that I can say to you, except:

2 Chronicles 25: 4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

I can only ask out of ignorance what do you see in this that I don't? If you sin, you die, and you die not for your Father's sin, but for your own.

His death satisifies the death sentence of another. It does not satisfy the wrath of God.

I have to say I don't quite understand what you are saying. You say that his death satifies a death sentence of another, but not the wrath of G-d? Does that mean the wrath of G-d will now put someone to death?

If you can, explain this to me in the way that I see that you see it (if that makes sense):

A man is sitting on death row waiting for the electric chair. Another man comes, and takes his place. The First man, is aloud to go free. The other man dies, and the U.S. Justice system finds this just and fair to let the other man go free, no problem. Why then would the Justice System again go after the first man if another took his place and they already found this fair?

Valid, your assertion that the law was added so that all could sin after the similitude of Adam is just plain unscriptural. There certainly was law between Eden and Sinai; the scriptures speak of it.

I have to ask what you make of this:

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

People between Adam and Moses did not sin like Adam did, that is Transgress a Law - Because there was nothing to Transgress. They were not given a command until the Law was given. Once it was given, it INCREASED the Transgression of Adam (Rom 5:20).

What is Paul saying then when he says that 'them that had NOT sinned after the similitude?' What is the similitude of Adam's Transgression?

Peace,
Valid Name