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**Matthew23** · 01-14-2003, 07:57 PM

YHWH accepts substitutes- He has even gone so far as to provide them for us...

Genesis 3:21
Genesis 22:13
Exodus 12:1-13
Exodus 28:38
Isaiah 53:5
Leviticus 1:4
Leviticus 16:21-22
Leviticus 17:11
Numbers 3:12
Numbers 3:41
Numbers 3:45
Numbers 8:18
I Kings 20:42

**Matthew23** · 01-14-2003, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by hyssop

What I would like you to think about is:
"From what did Y'shua ransom us?"
"Who did we owe?" "For what?"
"Who did He pay?" "With what?"

from what? DEATH
who did we owe? YHWH
for what? UNRIGHTEOUSNESS
who did He pay? YHWH
with what? HIS LIFE

**Thummim** · 01-15-2003, 01:41 PM

Unintentional sin vs intentional sin.

...Matt, these offerings are not substitutes. They are for unintentional sin.

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24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto YHWH, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto YHWH, and their sin offering before YHWH, for their ignorance:

26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.

27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.

28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before YHWH, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Nu. 15: 24 - 30

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16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Ps. 51: 16, 17

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6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Ps. 40: 6

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6 Wherewith shall I come before YHWH, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?

7 Will YHWH be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth YHWH require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mi. 6: 6 - 8

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6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hos. 6: 6

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...Intention sin is another creature. When one sins intentionally, he needs to work it out with YHWH. Like with Moses and Aaron, all sins are not addressed by offerings and sacrifices. The accidental infraction needs to be dealt with. But intentional sin is not forgiven by the sheding of anothers blood. The people are asked to deal with their sin and not trust in a sacrifice.

...Many people misunderstand this point. There is no requirement for an offering to be given for intentional sin. But sincerity and a contrite heart help very much, if the sin is deliberate. No one can buy themselves out of their transgressions. Not even Moses or Aaron, who were not allowed to make any offering to get past their sin of making themselves the deliverers of YHWH's people, by refusing to santify the name of YHWH. {the sin of the NT and its writers} It is like the only book that is without the Name of YHWH in it. This book is the book of Esther, that details a plan to destroy all GD's people. Perhaps it is a warning of the "NT" which yeilds little to the JEWish people. If Moses and Aaron are not allowed to cross over into the promised land, you know that their sin must be very bad.

....Michael

**Matthew23** · 01-15-2003, 01:59 PM

Where do we draw the line between an unintentional sin and sin that is intentional? Or better yet, where does YHWH draw the line?

And why does David also say: "Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean"? Ps.51:7

**Thummim** · 01-15-2003, 03:38 PM

There are sins, and then there are sins!

...Matt, the purge me with hyssup line has nothing to do with sin. It refers to Numbers chap. 19, where the rules of cleansing from death are found. Hyssup is one of the ingredients used. Davids son by Uriah's wife dies and David is defiled by death. This is seen in the heading of Ps. 51, when David fathers a child by Bathsheba which YHWH kills.

...The parallel story is II Sam. chapter 12. Nathan tells David of a rich man who steals a poor mans lamb. David becomes very angry and decides that this rich man should die. Then Nathan tells David that he is the rich man and the lamb is Uriahs wife. Later David fathers the child by Bathsheba, who is born sickly and dies in his presence. That requires cleansing from having touched death.

...Any offering given to YHWH may either be excepted by him, or he may refuse it. These offerings really are more for YHWH then his people. There is a connection between the people and their GD. This connection is addressed with these offerings. An unintentional sin is still a sin to an Eloheem whose name you are linked to. {See Nu. 6: 27, Mal. 2: 1, 2} The blessing of this people requires this "Linking" of names. Without GD's Name, a righteous offering cannot be made. It is Hashem that is being served and this Name that the temple is built for. It is always better to be connected to your Eloheem. This is the line of Shem {the Name} "of Noah's son" that leads to the name of GD. "the enterprise of Moses" (ie.) "what is your name?"

...Unintended sin is not contemplated by the sinner. It is not a sin of the soul. These sins are unavoidable, but still touch YHWH. Holiness is like the rings of an onion. These rings surround YHWH, requiring a priest to become holier and holier as he nears YHWH. One of the worst sins that YHWH hates is competition with other gods. Hashem is treated like a family name. The people are refered to as YHWH's wife or as children to their Eloheem. The offerings are not the center of this faith. The center is YHWH's Name.

...Then along came christianity and changed everything and put the Levitical offerings at the center. But those offerings do not yeild life. That requires the Name of YHWH.

....Michael

**Matthew23** · 01-15-2003, 10:55 PM

Give me some examples of each kind of sin... unintentional vs. intentional.

...the Hyssop part has nothing to do with sin? I beg to differ. The whole 51st Psalm is all about SIN and MERCY. When David was with Bath-sheba, was it not a sin? Was it intetional or unintentional?

**simchat_torah** · 01-16-2003, 02:52 AM

Shalom Matthew,

Thummim is correct that the line in Tehillim (psalms) 51 is in fact a purification from touching that of a dead body. Dovid obviously was defiled by the death of his son.

Yes, he did commit a sin with Bathsheba.
Yes he does repent from that sin in Tehillim 51.
Yet his cry to cleanse with hyssop is an obvious refrence to Torah's purification of being defiled by death.

"Where do we draw the line between an unintentional sin and sin that is intentional?"

Two sources can tell us the answer...

1) HaShem alone makes this distinction.

and others may prescribe to the idea that:

2) Halacha will tell us the difference.

Halachic interpretation on this matter is quite complicated, however, I lean towards the first theory.

The Torah does in fact make a point to discuss both types of sin. It gives two different types of cleansing, sacrafices, and atonement for each category of sin.

We can discuss this in a seperate thread however, because this topic alone would take pages upon pages to fully explain.

Shalom,
Yafet.

**Valid Name** · 01-16-2003, 08:08 AM

Good Morning,

This comes to mind...

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

However I have to run...

Valid Name

**Matthew23** · 01-18-2003, 12:03 AM

Nowhere in the account of David in IISamuel 11 & 12 is it stated that he came in contact with the dead body of his child. And notice that when David admits "I have sinned against YHWH" (12:13) it is before the child had even died (12:18).

Another thing... The heading of Psalm 51 states "When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bath-sheba." This was SEVEN DAYS before the child died (12:18)!

So in Psalm 51, David needed cleansing from his sin, not from touching a dead body. So if the hyssop spoken of in Ps.51:7 wasn't to be dipped in the "water of cleansing" (Num. 19), what was it supposed to be dipped in?

**Thummim** · 01-19-2003, 01:57 PM

Washing off blood guiltiness.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

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...Blood guiltiness is touching death to David. His child is dead because of him. If he had gone to war and slain his enemies, he would have been required to pass all of the things that would not burn, through the fire of cleansing. He himself, along with all his company would be required to undergo cleansing with hyssop and after seven days, to wash themselves and put on clean clothes.

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19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify bothyourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.

20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood.

21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which YHWH commanded Moses;

22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,

23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.

24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp. Num. 31: 19 - 24

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...David killed this child with his own sin. He allows seven days of mourning to pass and then washes himself according to the Levitical law. Hyssop is not enough. One must also "wash" himself on the seventh day, as the scripture says.

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7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, --> and I shall be whiter than snow. Ps. 51: 7

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...Both I, and sim_chat torah have told you rightly.

....Michael

**Matthew23** · 01-19-2003, 05:19 PM

I don't see anything about waiting seven days...

2 Samuel 12:19 David noticed that his servants were whispering among themselves and he realized the child was dead. "Is the child dead?" he asked.
"Yes," they replied, "he is dead."
20 Then David got up from the ground. After he had washed, put on lotions and changed his clothes, he went into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he went to his own house, and at his request they served him food, and he ate.

And you need to consider the context of the washing that David is talking about:

Psalm 51:2 Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin.

Is David full of sorrow because he has been defiled by touching death? No, he's sorry because of the sin he committed. He admitted his sin (2 Sam:13) even before he was told that the child would die (v.14).

So you both have told me your interpretation of the scripture in question, but are you sure that it is correct?

**hyssop** · 01-19-2003, 05:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Previous Conversation:<HR>Hyssop: What father would punish his good child as a substitute for his wicked children?
Matthew23: For G-d so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Hyssop: We know there is a spiritual war taking place between our Creator and those spirit beings that are His enemies--our enemies. Y'shua died in order to deliver us from our slavery to sin.
Matthew23: ...the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and give his life as a ransom for many.<HR></blockquote>Matt, it is evident that you believe the "mainstream Christian" doctrine of a substitutional death of the Messiah "in your stead." You use Y'shua's death in the same manner as ancient Israel often used the sacrifices: as a payment to satisfy what seemed to be an obsession on the Creator's part to punish something (or someone) in order to forgive sin. <BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Matthew23<HR>YHWH accepts substitutes- He has even gone so far as to provide them for us...

Genesis 3:21
Genesis 22:13
Exodus 12:1-13
Exodus 28:38
Isaiah 53:5
Leviticus 1:4
Leviticus 16:21-22
Leviticus 17:11
Numbers 3:12
Numbers 3:41
Numbers 3:45
Numbers 8:18
I Kings 20:42<HR></blockquote>That's quite a long list of scriptures. Until one takes a look at them, it might seem that you've got a lot of evidence to support the substitutional death of the innocent in place of the guilty. However, upon inspection, I think that most would see that the majority of these scriptures have nothing to do with punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty. In fact, Hashem is pretty clear about who He will punish:<BLOCKQUOTE>Exo 32 KJV<HR>[30] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the L~RD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin. [31] And Moses returned unto the L~RD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. [32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. [33] And the L~RD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.<HR></blockquote><BLOCKQUOTE>Ezek 14 KJV<HR>[13] Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: [14] Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the L~rd G~D.<HR></blockquote><BLOCKQUOTE>Ezek 18 KJV<HR>[19] Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. [20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.<HR></blockquote>Hashem will not accept an innocent substitute "in the sinner's stead." The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

So, what did Y'shua accomplish in His death? Well, He redeemed us. Fine. How does redemption work? The place to look for those answers is the scriptures:<BLOCKQUOTE>Exo 6:6 KJV<HR> Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the L~RD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:<HR></blockquote>Hashem told Moses that He was going to redeem Israel from out of Egypt. And, when He first mentioned the redemption of the firstborn to Moses, He said:<BLOCKQUOTE>Exo 13 KJV<HR>[13] And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem. [14] And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the L~RD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:<HR></blockquote>So, what is Egypt? What is this house of bondage from which Y'shua is redeeming us? Your redemption, Matt, is from a punishment, is it not?<BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Matthew23<HR>from what {did Y'shua ransom us}? DEATH
who did we owe? YHWH
for what? UNRIGHTEOUSNESS
who did He pay? YHWH
with what? HIS LIFE<HR></blockquote>That's not what I consider the "shadow" given to us in Exodus. Hashem is in the process of bringing us out of sin, out of slavery to sin. The traditional view of Y'shua's redemption is that Hashem gave Y'shua to us so that we could pay Hashem the debt of punishment that we owed Him for our sin. In Y'shua, Hashem now has someone to punish. As long as He can "vent" His anger on someone, He's happy. Come on. Does this really make sense?

**Thummim** · 01-19-2003, 08:06 PM

Dead on their feet!

...Matt,

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2: 17

...Did Adam touch death on the day that he ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? Or did GD lie? I believe that when David confessed his bloodguiltiness, he also confessed that he had touched death as well. David himself declared that he was guilty of sin worthy of death. Didn't he also touch death when he declared, ...

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4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As YHWH liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:

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...Does YHWH live {as David declares that he does} and did David execute himself by his own words? Who alone can anole his death warrent? He has touched death, for YHWH has already decreed that the child will die. David has already killed this child, though it is not yet in the grave. The child is still as dead as either Adam or Eve were when they ate of the forbidden fruit. They both died when YHWH declared them dead at their transgression. Their bodies still hadn't been put in the grave yet, but they were already dead. And though Adam, Eve, and David all touched death at their appointed times, they went to the grave some time later, David's own death sentence being commuted by YHWH. {II Sam. 12: 13} Hyssop belongs only to a narrow body of Levitical laws dealing with ritual cleansing. The offerings and sacrifices belong to unintentional sin, apart from the offerings given to YHWH as gifts.

...Likely, sim_chat torah could give you some talmudic backing for the above argument. The talmud however, is not my strength.

....Michael

**hyssop** · 01-19-2003, 09:29 PM

Michael,

Hashem created the seven-day week to teach us about His plan for man. I believe that each day in the physical week represents a thousand-year "day" in Hashem's plan. For example, the seventh day (Shabbat) is the Day of the L~rd or L~rd's Day, a thousand-year period when Messiah will rule.

Hashem told Adam: "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die (Gen 2:17 KJV)." When Adam ate of the tree, he was destined to die on the first day of the seven-thousand year plan. Adam did not see Day Two; he died at the age of nine hundred and thirty (Gen 5:5).

**Thummim** · 01-20-2003, 02:09 PM

The wise heart knows more than knowledge.

...Hyssop, we both have our own bridge to cross this river of confusion. {Adam dieing on the day of his sin} I believe that Adam, and his wife died when YHWH created death. {when death could first be touched} The world wasn't created in 6000 of our years. This is the danger of counting out creation in our own years. The knowledge that we gained from Adams sin, shows us that this is wrong. We know how to measure the heavens like YHWH. The count comes out wrong, when we do it right. Could you believe that the answer is counted in the billions of years?

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The Psalm of Moses

12 So teach us to number {count} our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.

13 Return, O YHWH, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants. Ps. 90: 12, 13

....Michael

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