atonement

[Matthew23]

You guys are gangin' up on me! Give me some time, I'll try to answer as much as I can. I'm not a bible whiz by any means, but I think I can get the needed (correct ) responses posted before too long...

[Matthew23]

originally posted by Hyssop
That's quite a long list of scriptures. Until one takes a look at them, it might seem that you've got a lot of evidence to support the substitutional death of the innocent in place of the guilty. However, upon inspection, I think that most would see that the majority of these scriptures have nothing to do with punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.

Fair enough, but what about the “minority”?

Now, do you not believe that Yeshuah ransomed us from DEATH?… if not then explain this:
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I believe that the sinner will be punished for his own sins. That is justice. Is YHWH a just God? Yes. He is the judge who decides if we are guilty or not. He is the judge who will sentence us. We are all guilty of sin, and our sentence is death (Romans 3:10, Psalm 14:3). How is it then, that we can be “saved” from this penalty that we deserve due to our unrighteousness?

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 3:20-25 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for ALL have ainned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his BLOOD. He did this to demonstrate JUSTICE...

[simchat_torah]

Shalom All,

I will try to bring some Rabbinical quotes later (possibly before the weekend?) concerning substitutional sacrafices. It most definately is a Jewish concept.

-Yafet.

[Matthew23]

Thummim,

I would actually like to hear what the Talmud says about this topic. I have been reading a book called How Firm a Foundation by Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, which tells "what one should know about Jews and Judaism". So, I have just begun to learn about such things as "Talmud" and "mitzvah". I have a very shallow understanding of Judaism, but through reading the book and talking with you, I'm sure I'll get "schooled" more than I bargained for. Judaism is very interesting to me now, after coming to the realization that Christianity has been, after all, a Jewish movement (hope you don't mind me saying so).

[Thummim]

Learning doctrine.

...Matt, let me leave the talmud to sim_chat torah. We can both learn from him, the thinking of the rabbis. Arguing from the talmud would leave my feet on quicksand. I do hear the talmud being quoted more and more often. Perhaps one day, we will learn it as we now learn from the three books of the tanakh. Who knows what YHWH has in store for us?

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11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine. Isa. 29: 11, 12; 23, 24


....Michael

[Matthew23]

Funny you should post that...

The Mormons claim those verses (Isaiah 29:11,12) to be a prophesy concerning the Book of Mormon. I'm blown away by Mormonism... Do you know any Mormons?

[Thummim]

Stretching words to cover the need.

...Matt, I've conversed with Mormons, but but find little in the way of a blessing to the JEWish people in their faith. The thieves all have their day. But doesn't it have to be JEWish? The problem is that too few books of faith were written to satisfy all men. So those that exists have to do double duty. What gets me, is that the people who wrote the most revered book, get the shaft in most of these faiths. But if the letters of the Name of GD really come from the name of the tribe of Judah, {omiting the fourth letter} all theives will again have their day. I do possess a copy of the book of Mormon. But without faith in the author, one cannot have faith in what he writes.

....Michael

[hyssop]

Substitutional Sacrifice

I sincerely doubt that the Jews originated the idea of substitutional sacrifice. It seems that sacrificing the innocent (virgins to the volcano god, for example) "in the stead of" the guilty has been around forever.

I will agree that substitutional sacrifice has certainly been observed by the Jewish people. The practice, however, was blasted by the prophets. Their message from Hashem was: "Your substitutional sacrifices are an abomination. Instead, do what I tell you to do."

[Matthew23]

Re: Substitutional Sacrifice

Originally posted by hyssop
I will agree that substitutional sacrifice has certainly been observed by the Jewish people. The practice, however, was blasted by the prophets. Their message from Hashem was: "Your substitutional sacrifices are an abomination. Instead, do what I tell you to do."

Hyssop, if you don't mind, give me some scripture references so I can check it out.

Matt

[hyssop]

One example that is pretty much to the point:<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Micah 6 KJV</font><HR>[6]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Wherewith shall I come before the L~RD, and bow myself before the high G~d? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? </font>[7]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Will the L~RD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? </font>[8]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the L~RD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G~d?</font><HR></blockquote>

[Matthew23]

that which is pleasing to YHWH

His desire is that we act justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with Him. If we don't, then we are required to make an offering. If we are constantly making offering after offering for the sins committed, then we haven't acted justly, loved mercy, and walked humbly with Him. Yes, YHWH is pleased with us when we act the way He wants us to...

It is not His desire that we make a sin offering- because that means we haven't acted according to His word.

Matt

[Thummim]

Do you know what your sins are?

...Matt, do you make an offering for your unintentional sins, or do the priests? What do you do about your intentional sins, since there is no offering for them?

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29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, {deliberately} whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 29 - 31

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16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. Ps. 51: 16

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....Michael

[Matthew23]

Re: Do you know what your sins are?

Originally posted by Michael
...Matt, do you make an offering for your unintentional sins, or do the priests? What do you do about your intentional sins, since there is no offering for them?

If I sin intentionally, how sorry would I be afterwards? How sorry is someone who commits premeditated murder as opposed to the person who murders someone when he's in a moment of rage? I may be stretching it here, but I think that's the issue that Numbers 15:29-31 is dealing with. The sinner that isn't sorry cannot be forgiven, so a sacrifice wouldn't do him any good. That would be a sacrifice like those referred to in Micah 6:6-8. But the sinner that has a broken and a contrite heart- he will be forgiven, provided he offers a sacrifice as commanded by the Levitical law.

Once the sinner described in Num. 15:29-31 is cut off from his people, will he ever have a chance to come back? Is it possible for him to ever be forgiven?

Matt

[hyssop]

Matt:

Hashem is not pleased with any sacrifice . . . it's the broken and contrite heart that he's looking for.<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Psalm 51 KJV</font><HR>[16]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give <I>it</i>: thou delightest not in burnt offering. </font>[17]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> The sacrifices of God <I>are</i> a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
</font><HR></blockquote>So, if anyone tells you that you can sacrifice something "in your place" to make Him happy with you, you're being misled.

[Matthew23]

Check these out when you get a few minutes...
Gen. 8:20-21
Exo. 29:18,25,41
Lev.1:9,13,17
Lev. 2:2,9,12

I can go on, there are more examples of how the offering made by fire is a "pleasing aroma" to YHWH.

originally posted by Hyssop
Hashem is not pleased with any sacrifice . . . it's the broken and contrite heart that he's looking for.

The offering and the broken and contrite heart are what he's looking for.

It is the unrepentent heart that displeases Him; makes the sacrifice useless...

Leviticus 26:14-31
14 " 'But if you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, 15 and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant, 16 then I will do this to you: I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and drain away your life. You will plant seed in vain, because your enemies will eat it. 17 I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies; those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee even when no one is pursuing you.
18 " 'If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. 19 I will break down your stubborn pride and make the sky above you like iron and the ground beneath you like bronze. 20 Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of the land yield their fruit.
21 " 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.
23 " 'If in spite of these things you do not accept my correction but continue to be hostile toward me, 24 I myself will be hostile toward you and will afflict you for your sins seven times over. 25 And I will bring the sword upon you to avenge the breaking of the covenant. When you withdraw into your cities, I will send a plague among you, and you will be given into enemy hands. 26 When I cut off your supply of bread, ten women will be able to bake your bread in one oven, and they will dole out the bread by weight. You will eat, but you will not be satisfied.
27 " 'If in spite of this you still do not listen to me but continue to be hostile toward me, 28 then in my anger I will be hostile toward you, and I myself will punish you for your sins seven times over. 29 You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you. 31 I will turn your cities into ruins and lay waste your sanctuaries, and I will take no delight in the pleasing aroma of your offerings.

If YHWH does not desire sacrifice, then why did He command moses to do so in the first place?

Matt