atonement

[hyssop]

<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Matthew23</font><HR>If YHWH does not desire sacrifice, then why did He command moses to do so in the first place?<HR></blockquote>Your <I>logic</i> is ill founded. Just because Hashem commands that one do something doesn't necessarily mean that He enjoys it. Hashem commands the death of the wicked and, yet, He says:<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Ezek 33:11 KJV</font><HR><FONT COLOR=BLUE> Say unto them, As I live, saith the L~rd G~D, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?</font><HR></blockquote>If Hashem is not pleased with the death of the wicked, why does He command it? He wants the wicked to see that there is a consequence to sin. For that same reason, He commanded sacrifice. He wanted the individual to see that, as a result of their sin, an innocent animal died. What should the sinner <I>logically</i> do, when they see what their sin has caused? The sinner should repent (change); they should move away from sin. Instead, many get the idea that Hashem is some bloodthirsty being who can be satisfied by the sacrifice itself. He commands sacrifice, but He does not want sacrifice. Rather, He desires that the sinner stop sinning.

[Matthew23]

Hyssop,

I respect you because you have zeal for G-d. But I can not at this time agree with your views on this subject. I must say, I have learned a great deal about YHWH's word since I have been talking with you all here.
Maybe we ought to try discussing something that we agree upon (or something else that we don't ). Do you have any favorite books of the bible? Maybe there is a certain subject therein that you would like to talk about...

Matt

[hyssop]

Matt,

I respect you, too. I know how difficult it is to really see past substitutionalism; I've been there. I also think that it may be time to move on to other topics.

I'll think about a subject for another thread. If you come up with one, blast it on out there.

Peace.

[Thummim]

Is substitutionalism a house without a foundation?

...Matt, can you tell me what sacrifice "Jesus" is fulfilling, and to what consequence? How do we get any sort of a sacrifice for sin without using an altar and fire? Paul believes that their is no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. But YHWH rutinely forgives sin without bloodshed, given that there is no sacrifice for intentional sin to be found in the torah. To get substitutionalism down without pinpointing which sacrifice that we are talking about, can only cause confusion. Show me a parallel sacrifice in the tanakh that has anything to do with sin. I really think that believing that an offering can be "fulfilled", is misleading. "Jesus" does a poor job of fulfilling any sacrifice that exits in the torah. It seems to me, that reading from the torah that there is no sacrifice for intentional sin, {Nu. 15: 30} just slips by everybody. Any reading of the torah will show you that a passover lamb is not a sin offering, seeing that all sin offerings are always required with its slaughter. {Nu. 28: 16 - 25} This brings up this question, "If "Jesus" is to be taken for a passover lamb, where are the sin offerings that are required with the passover lambs use, to be seen at the crucifixion of {Jesus}"? Can you make a case that Israel was sinless when they left Egypt, heading for the promised land?

....Michael

[Matthew23]

Michael, you always ask the best questions. Believe me, you've got me thinking; even had me up late some nights. I'll be thinking about these things that you've asked. I don't know all the answers, but I'm eager to know what they are... for the livelihood of my own faith...I'll be searching. I hope I never stop.

Obviously, you care about me enough to share with me what you believe to be the truth. I appreciate that.

Matt-

sometimes I have to ask myself: "What do i love more- my God...
or my religion?"

[Matthew23]

Michael,

When you get some spare time, would you do me a favor...? Read the book of Hebrews and let me know what you think. It deals a lot with Yeshua's role in the levitical law.

Matt

[Thummim]

Pauls words {from Hebrews}

...Matt, Paul rests most of his faith upon a single scripture of Psalms. He believes that "Jesus" is the priest in the "order of Melchizedek". That he places above the torah, the book of Psalms, is evident in his premise of a "fulfilled law". Take Psalms 110 from him, and his whole faith falls apart.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: Heb. 10: 11

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

...To Paul, the Levitical priesthood of Aaron could not remove sin perpetually by any offering made, seeing that every offering was always renewed, and so they were only a shadow of what was to come. He believed that everlasting righteousness had to come to fulfill scripture. {though not ceeded to all the JEWish people in his own faith} So he needed a sacrifice to accomplish this. He believes that there can be no atonement for sin without the shedding of blood. Since the priesthood of Psalms 110 belongs to the tribe of Judah, and the Priesthood of Aaron does not remediate sin in any perminant way, this priest of the Psalms is to be a permanent answer to sin.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

...Here Paul concludes that the offerings of the Levitical priesthood are now {with the sacrifice of "Jesus"}, no longer valid as a way of reconciling our transgressions against YHWH. But we both know that these offerings were never for the intentional sins of the people. They were to keep the Name of YHWH clean. The Place were the Name of YHWH resides is always kept clean. Its holiness is maintained through the offerings of the Levitical priesthood. Intentional seen is always seen as the domain of YHWH, in its reconciling. YHWH may forgive a sin or he may hold the offenders accountable until the third or fourth generation passes. That is the law of the torah. Nowhere does it say in Psalms, that this priest like Melchizedek will be able to forgive sin, as YHWH already does. There is no such authority given to this priest. He is simply to await GD's overpowering of his enemies. Did Melchizedek ever forgive a sin? If Melchezidek cannot forgive a sin, {there is no evidence of him doing so} why should "Jesus" be able to? The Psalmist creates a throne for his Priest - King to sit in. This is what his words are all about. But "Jesus" sits in no such throne. The Psalmist is not talking about establishing a throne in the heavens. He's saying to David, sit at my right hand {in his power} until he reigns over his enemies {who dwell upon the earth}. But Paul loves to stretch things a bit. Paul gets very little support from the torah in establishing his faith. Thus he needs to circumvent its laws and teachings with his own. If YHWH can already forgive an intentional sin, why must he create a new method to do so? Why, when there has never been an offering for intentional sin, must YHWH create one? Why does Paul state that Abraham had faith that YHWH can raise Isaac up from the dead? {Heb. 11: 19} David didn't believe this of YHWH and his own son. {II Sam. 12: 23} I think that Abraham was only being obedient. He was willing to obey his Eloheem to this extent. {a burnt offering of his most precious possession} But YHWH was unwilling to except the sacrifice of Isaac. YHWH can suggest killing a promised people {the seed of Isaac} and replaceing them with another people. Then too, Moses did intercede for his people as there intercessor {unlike "Jesus" who didn't, as Isa. 53 required him to do} Wouldn't this shadow more closely what Abraham did? {Ex. 22: 10} The faith of the NT is gentile in nature, and is easily picked apart. Now what will YHWH need with the spilling of innocent blood? Does that really seem like something that YHWH would require? YHWH spills the blood of those who curse his Name or his people. And of his people, he curses those who seek another god or transgress his laws. {YHWH's own already existing forgiveness of the transgressors being reckoned in} Paul is easy to argue with. He is not so understanding in the knowledge of YHWH. He needs to walk away from the faith of his forefathers to embrace his new faith.

....Michael

[Matthew23]

Why doesn't the Jewish community offer sacrifices any more? When did it stop? Why did it stop?

[simchat_torah]

When the temple was destroyed they stopped.

They do not continue beause HaShem declared that they are only to be done in the place of his choosing. Unfortunately right now, there is a mosk on top of the temple grounds. Thus the place of his choosing is temporarily unavailable.

[Matthew23]

Originally posted by simchat_torah
HaShem declared that they are only to be done in the place of his choosing.

Where in His word can I find that?

[simchat_torah]

Ultimately, this can be answered by one simple verse:

Duet. 16:2
"2Your Passover sacrifice may be from either the flock or the herd, and it must be sacrificed to the L-RD your G-d at the place he chooses for his name to be honored."

Here he explicitly states that the sacrafice must be done in the place of he chooses. Adonai also commanded Israel to keep the feasts in one place only, the place of His choosing (Deuteronomy 12:5).

The tabernacle/temple was the appointed place where the atoning sacrifices were to be offered, and they were to be offered there and no where else. Israel was to have but one temple to reflect the fact that there is only one G-d (Deuteronomy 12:5,13,14; 16:5,6), and to avoid the corruption of their worship (1 Kings 12:26-33). The tabernacle’s portable nature was suited to the nomadic period of Israel’s forty years of wilderness wandering, and the early, unsettled years in the promised land. Later, when the nation was fully settled in the land, the L-rd Himself chose Jerusalem as the location for the permanent temple (1 Kings 8:44,48; 11:13,32,36; 14:21; Psalm 78:68-70).

Jerusalem is the place that HaShem chose to place his name upon, and to forever stamp his reputation among men with his promises concerning its destiny. ( I Kings 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light always before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there. ) ( II Kings 2:7 reiterates this same idea and includes the comment that his name is connected to Jerusalem ) II Chronicles 6:6 But I ( G-d ) have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel. Jerusalem was the city chosen by G-d for Israel to build his tabernacle.

Zechariah 1:14 reveals that HaShem is jealous for Jerusalem, and in chapter 2:12 indicates that when G-d brings his people back and plants them in their own land; that he will yet choose Jerusalem again.

Although G-d does not require a building or a dwelling place, for He is Spirit, He, nevertheless, graciously agrees to appear "before His holy people in the place of his choosing." For this reason, Adonai called the Holy Temple of King Solomon "The House of My Glory" (Isa. 60:7)

[Matthew23]

Thank you for pointing that out. That kind of puts a kink in the point that I was ready to make, but what about the commandment to keep the feasts and continue to give offerings "by an ordinance for ever" (Exodus 12:14,17,24; Numbers 18:8)? It seems that the Jewish people are in a sort of predicament: They have been commanded to make offerings unto YHWH- forever, but they don't have a place of His choosing available to do so. What I'm wondering is...

Since the destruction of the temple, have the views of substitutional sacrifice and atonement changed- perhaps because there is no way to sacrifice?

[simchat_torah]

I know I had promised to bring in some rabbinical quotes concerning substatutional sacrafices, yet I haven't done that yet... busy busy busy.

Seems ever since I started this night job I haven't been on the internet as much as I would like to be... but hopefully that will change soon.

Anyway, aside from substatution, there are other ways that the Jews have developed to atone for sin... and it can be traced back to at least Daniel if not further.

Tzaddakah ---> righteous acts.
Teshuvah ---> repentance.
T'philah ---> prayer.

Tzaddakah, Teshuvah, and T'philah...

These are seen as coverings for unintentional sin... however, there remains no sacrafice for intentional sin in Judaism.

Shalom Mishpochah.
-Yafet.

[simchat_torah]

I suppose what I forgot to mention is that there were other times that the Jews were without a temple. The past 2k years are not unique in that aspect. Many christians turn to that and make very odd doctrines out of the lack of a temple, but it was even prophesied that there would be a third temple. Essentially, all of the rantings I have heard from christianity about the Jews lacking a temple (currently) only fuel replacement theology.

The temple has been destoyed before, this is not unique. The Jews did come up with replacements for the sacrafices...

In place of the 3 daily sacrafices, Daniel prayed prayed, facing the temple, and specifically during the three times a sacrafice was to be offered. As well, there are many verses that indicate HaShem desires righteousness over sacrafices none the less, and here is where Tzaddakah comes in.

Teshuvah is turning from our unrighteous acts, and then turning our hearts and minds towards performing Tzaddakah.

Shalom Mishpochah.
-Yafet.

[Matthew23]

If the Jewish people no longer perform sacrifices because the Temple is gone, then why do they continue to observe the Feasts of YHWH?

Deuteronomy 16...
1 Observe the month of Abib and celebrate the Passover of YHWH your G-d, because in the month of Abib he brought you out of Egypt by night. 2 Sacrifice as the Passover to YHWH your G-d an animal from your flock or herd at the place YHWH will choose as a dwelling for his Name...
5 You must not sacrifice the Passover in any town YHWH your G-d gives you 6 except in the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name. There you must sacrifice the Passover in the evening, when the sun goes down, on the anniversary of your departure from Egypt...

10 Then celebrate the Feast of Weeks to YHWH your G-d by giving a freewill offering in proportion to the blessings YHWH your G-d has given you. 11 And rejoice before YHWH your G-d at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name...

13 Celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days after you have gathered the produce of your threshing floor and your winepress... 15 For seven days celebrate the Feast to YHWH your G-d at the place YHWH will choose.

16 Three times a year all your men must appear before YHWH your G-d at the place he will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Tabernacles.

Wouldn't the same logic apply to the Feasts as it would to the offerings?

This is what I believe...

There is fulfillment of the sacrifices and the Feasts- in Yeshua and in His body, the church. There is a "spiritual" way in which believers in Messiah keep the Feasts of YHWH. Just as in the Levitical law there were "types and shadows" of what would come, so there are also "types and shadows" in the Feasts of YHWH. There's no way we can keep the Feasts literally as described in the Torah if we can't even offer the sacrifices we are commanded to offer to go along with the Feasts! I believe though, that the Feasts can be kept in spiritual ways.

There are many ways in which the Feasts have been fulfilled (and also some ways in which they are yet to be fulfilled). To discuss this in detail would require a new thread or threads. If anyone shows enough interest (for the activity here is very low), I'd love to discuss the ways in which the Feasts have been, and will be, fulfilled. I have much to learn in this area, so I'd love to discuss this with someone, in order for myself (and others) to come to a better understanding of YHWH's word.

sincerely,
matt (i just want to know Him better tomorrow than i do today)