atonement

[Matthew23]

Tell me more. I'm not quite getting your point here. And I'm not so sure that this points toward Jesus. The red heifer was to be slaughtered outside the camp, not at the altar, unlike the "normal" sacrifices. The focus seems to be on the ashes which would be used in the water for cleansing. Interesting.

Matt

[hyssop]

<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Matthew23</font><HR>And I'm not so sure that this points toward Jesus. The red heifer was to be slaughtered outside the camp, not at the altar, unlike the "normal" sacrifices.<HR></blockquote>Matt, don't forget our premise: "The sacrifices were a shadow or type of Yashua's suffering and death that was to come." This does not mean "<I>most</i> of the sacrifices were a shadow;" they all were. Now, let's examine verses 3 & 4:
<B>ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest</b> - Eleazar was not the high priest, Aaron was. To whom was Yashua taken first? (John 18:12-13 KJV)<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took [Yashua], and bound him, And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.</font> Just as the Red Heifer was not taken to Aaron, the High Priest, Yashua was not first taken to Caiaphas, the high priest that year.
<B>he may bring her forth without the camp</b> - Yashua was crucified outside of Jerusalem. (Heb 13:12-13 KJV)<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Wherefore [Yashua] also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered <B>without the gate</b>. Let us go forth therefore unto him <B>without the camp</b>, bearing his reproach.</font>
<B><I>one</i> shall slay her before his face</b> - The priests witnessed Yashua's suffering by the hands of the Jews and His crucifixion by the Romans.
<B>Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood directly before the tabernacle of the congregation seven times</b> - I do not know for sure the fulfillment of this scripture (although I <I>am</i> sure that Yashua fulfilled it, somehow, in His suffering and death). I have been told that Yashua's blood was spilled seven times from the time of His arrest through the time of His death on the cross. This makes sense to me, but I'm just not sure. It is interesting to note that the <I>Pentateuch</i> states that the seven sprinklings were common in the case of all sin-offerings (see Lev 4: 6 & 17).

Matt, think about Yashua going over these scriptures with His disciples after He was raised from the dead. He showed them His death, burial, and resurrection that was written, but veiled, in the law of Moses. This is the message that Paul took into the synagogues: Yashua's death, burial, and resurrection <B>according to the scriptures</b>. We are still looking at the death and burning of the Red Heifer: Yashua's suffering and death.<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Number 19 KJV</font><HR>[5]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And <I>one</i> shall burn the heifer in his sight; her skin, and her flesh, and her blood, with her dung, shall he burn: </font>[6]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And the priest shall take cedar wood, and hyssop, and scarlet, and cast <I>it</i> into the midst of the burning of the heifer.</font><HR></blockquote>The burning of the heifer was a shadow of Yashua's suffering and ultimate death.

Nearly fifteen hundred years before Yashua's suffering and death, the law commanded that three ingredients be present! Can you find them?

[Matthew23]

keep going.

[hyssop]

According to Moses' law, three ingredients must be present at Yashua's suffering: <B>cedar wood</b>, <B>hyssop</b>, and <B>scarlet</b>.

Work with me a little bit . . . can you guess what those ingredients might be?

Look around for them . . .

HINT 1: I believe that the some say that the cross was made of dogwood. What do you think?

HINT 2: (John 19:28 KJV)<FONT COLOR=BLUE> After this, [Messiah] knowing that all things were now accomplished, <B>that the scripture might be fulfilled</b>, saith,</font><FONT COLOR=RED> I thirst</font><FONT COLOR=BLUE>.</font>

HINT 3: Matthew 27

Happy hunting!

[Matthew23]

Originally posted by hyssop
According to Moses' law, three ingredients must be present at Yashua's suffering: <B>cedar wood</b>, <B>hyssop</b>, and <B>scarlet</b>.

Before I get into looking for the three things, where do you get this from Moses' law?

[Searching]

The Red Hiefer

Peace Matthew,

Numbers 19 gives a list of many things, those three are in there.

Searching

(ps...Blues are in... I'll be nice again...)

[hyssop]

Sacrifices = Suffering &amp; Death of Messiah

Matt,

All of the sacrifices point to Yashua's death.

The Law states that the Passover must be sacrificed on the 14th day of the first month in the afternoon (Ex 12:6). Yashua was crucified on the 14th day of the first month in the afternoon (John 19:31). The passover could not have a broken bone (Ex 12:46); so, we can be sure that Yashua, our passover (I Cor 5:7), would not have any of His bones broken (John 19:33). How can we be sure? Because, if His legs would have been broken, Law would not have been fulfilled.

Now, if Yashua is the fulfillment of all of the sacrifices, then He is also the fulfillment of the regulations of the red heifer in Numbers 19. One of the regulations of the red heifer sacrifice is that cedar wood, hyssop, and scarlet must be cast into the burning of the heifer. Assuming that Yashua, in His suffering and death, fulfilled these commandments, we can be confident that all of these ingredients were there. Why? Because the Law <B>commands it</b>, and there is no one or no thing that can prevent Yashua from performing Yahweh's Law.

I hope you are following me here . . .

So, I have given you three hints to point you in the direction of determining those ingredients that were present at Yashua's suffering and death which, in a spiritual sense, was the once-and-for-all fulfillment of the burning of the red heifer. Moses' Law in Numbers 19:6 requires that those ingredients be present.

Please know that my only intention of asking you to look for these ingredients is to get you in tune with Yashua's spiritual fulfillment of Yahweh's physical laws that were given to Moses.

May Yahweh's spirit be with you,

[Matthew23]

Ah, yes. The scarlet robe. The hyssop and the sour wine.

Are we left to assume though, that the tree was of cedar wood? Or does the bible actually testify to it?

Interesting suff. Like I said, these conversations are always of value to me. I love to learn more about the word of G-d.

Oh yeah, I was thinking on my way home from work the other day: from now on, I'll post "G-d" and "J-sus" as such when posting at this board so as not to offend anyone. I must ask the question, though: Why do most of the people here substitute the title "Christ" with "Messiah?" I thought that they both meant the same thing, "Anointed One," "Christ" being a Greek term and "Messiah" being a Hebrew term.

Matt

G-d bless you too, Hyssop, Searching.

[hyssop]

Yes! Way to go! The Greek scriptures explicitly state the presence of the scarlet and the hyssop; the evidence of those ingredients would be difficult to find without the writers' help. And, yes, as far as I know, it is up to us to determine the location of the cedar wood. It would stand to reason that the Romans used cedar for their crosses, since it is far more weatherproof than other woods. However, there is no written proof in the scriptures that the cedar ingredient was the cross. There could have been a cedar ladder, a cedar closet , who knows? BUT, we do know that <B>it had to be there</b>; the Law commands it.

Before we continue with Numbers 19, I will attempt to answer your question about the name issue as best I can: Yes, Chr-st and Messiah mean the same thing. G-d and El, Elohim, etc. mean the same thing. L-rd and Yah, Yahweh, etc. mean the same thing. I consider Yashua, Yeshua, Yahshua, etc. to mean the same thing as J-sus. I can only speculate that those who insist upon using the "Sacred Names" have an aversion for the secular names. I do not wish to offend anyone, and I love the Hebrew language; so I am only too happy to use the English transliteration of the Hebrew words when I can.

And here we go . . . more fulfillment of scripture:<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Numbers 19 KJV</font><HR>[7]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Then the priest shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp, and the priest shall be unclean until the even. </font>[8]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And he that burneth her shall wash his clothes in water, and bathe his flesh in water, and shall be unclean until the even.</font><HR></blockquote>As you can see, those involved with the burning of the heifer became unclean. I believe that those unclean people participating in the burning of the heifer represent all who sin. The fulfillment of these scriptures is performed by the sinner (one who kills the sacrifice) who turns from his sin and is baptized (washes his clothes and his flesh in water).<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Numbers 19 KJV</font><HR>[9]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And a man <I>that is</i> clean shall gather up the ashes of the heifer, and lay <I>them</i> up without the camp in a clean place, and it shall be kept for the congregation of the children of Israel for a water of separation: it <I>is</i> a purification for sin.</font><HR></blockquote>You know, before Yahweh led me to see the power behind these scriptures, I would have fallen asleep reading Numbers 19 by now. More than twenty years after seeing this for the first time, I still get goosebumps when I read it.

Question: If the burning of the red heifer represents Yashua's suffering and death, what do the ashes that remain when it is over represent?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I hope that you said, "Yashua's dead body."

Now the Law requires that a <B>clean man</b> deposit the ashes in a <B>clean place</b> which had to be <B>outside the camp</b>.<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Luke 23 KJV</font><HR>[50]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> And, behold, <I>there was</i> a man named Joseph, a counsellor; <I>and he was</i> a good man, and a just: </font>[51]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them; ) <I>he was</i> of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of G-d. </font><FONT COLOR=RED>{a clean man} </font><HR></blockquote><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>John 19 KJV</font><HR>[41]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. </font><FONT COLOR=RED>{a clean place} </font>[42]<FONT COLOR=BLUE> There laid they J-sus therefore because of the Jews' preparation <I>day;</i> for the sepulchre was nigh at hand. </font><FONT COLOR=RED>{outside the camp} </font><HR></blockquote>More to come . . . this puts a whole new perspective on "<FONT COLOR=RED>Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.</font> (Mat 5:17 KJV)," doesn't it?

[Searching]

Messiah

Peace Matthew,

I will just tell you that I use the name 'Messiah' because in reality I haven't done any but a small bit of research about the sacred names. It does seem in the OT that the Father (<---there's my other one) did care a bit about his NAME. Once I get around to checking it all out I will change probably. I have so much other stuff to look at for the moment as well. I'm Beating my head against my pillow at night saying 'what does THAT mean gosh dangit' as it is. As well on most boards I find that those who use the name 'J-sus' and 'G-d' have almost immediatly disclosed thier religion to me...I usually know where they are coming from and what they are going to say. 'Christianity' no matter what denominations seems almost the same to me. I am sure you have noticed, but we are an 'odd' group (some more than others ) but there are others as well who believe in the Law who are often easily identified by what name they refer to Messiah as.

Do I think he really cares? Well, he gave us a really long Law...why the seventh day? Many things...many things...

I don't know if we talked about what the name Yashua means...but it is 'Yah is Salvation' which is neeter than what 'J-sus' translates to...I think that is.

By the way...Is Ldstalk down? I haven't been able to get on the board the past week.

And by the way again...Blues beat Detriot TWICE this weekend ...he he he. And I have a new favorite team to hate for the next 7 games. Hmm, this is a religious board...can you play hockey and be religious? I guess that's a hard one...Peace.

Searching

[Matthew23]

Searching,

I have read that the Hebrew language is considered a pure language. Taking the L-rd's name in vain is "harder" to do when using it. Let me know if you have more information on this.

The title J-sus is just an Hebrew to English translation of Yeshua. So I don't know what the big deal is really. His name was originally a Greek name (Iesous) in the first place anyhow, wasn't it?

About hockey...
Remember Bob Bassen? He could be a pretty mean dude at times. Well, Bob is a Christian. Go figure.

[Matthew23]

Hyssop,

Ahh, I get it now! The ashes/water used for purification represents the blood of J-sus! Yeah, you're dealing with a narrow sighted Christian

I have done some reading on this subject since you have brought it to my attention. I learned that the price paid (thirty pieces of silver) to Judas for the handing over of the Messiah was the same then as the price that would have been paid for a FEMALE slave. Interesting, eh?

You said more to come. I'll be quiet 'till then.

[hyssop]

Iesous???

Matt,

I sincerely doubt that Yashua's name given Him at birth was a Greek name. He was born of Jewish parents, circumcised the eight day . . . I would be astounded to know that they did not give Him a Hebrew name.

As far as what the ashes mixed with water represents (v17), we'll get there. I might not get more written on Numbers 19 before Friday night; I may have to work late on Thursday night.

Talk to you soon,

[Matthew23]

About Iesous...

The Jews of that time and place spoke Greek. The New Testament was written in Greek. So how do we know that His parents gave him the Hebrew name?

[hyssop]

&quot;Jesus&quot; -- Yashua -- Leroy?

We don't <I>know</i> what name He was given. We <I>do</i> know that He was the "seed" promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Abraham was a Hebrew, as were Isaac, Jacob, etc. The one common language to all "observant" Jews is Hebrew; they all use it when worshipping the Creator. Moses was raised an Egyptian and spoke the Egyptian's language (whatever that was), but I certainly would not expect Yah to have written the 10 commandments on those tablets of stone in hieroglyphics--my money is on Hebrew.

Mary and Joseph were Jewish. According to the scriptures, they did not really give Yashua His name: the angel(s) who appeared to each of them told them the name to use. Since the angel told Mary that Yah would give to Yashua "the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever" etc, I would really be surprised if Yah's angel gave her a Greek name to use.

However, for lack of some definite "proof" one way or the other (I do not know of the existance of such a proof): unless Yashua's given name is pivotal to supporting key theological beliefs/understanding, how much do we really need to argue our opinions?

Back to Numbers (if you so desire) soon,