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**Matthew23** · 04-19-2002, 10:20 AM

Yes, let's get back to Numbers.

**rivkah** · 04-19-2002, 05:46 PM

Ieasous (or however you spell it) literally means "son of Zeus." No, I'm quite certain his parents did not name him that.

But aha -- if you know his name in Hebrew, it means sooo much. Yehoshua -- G-d is salvation. That is a name above all other names, wouldn't you say? It gives life to the scripture, when you read about "the name."

**hyssop** · 04-19-2002, 10:26 PM

Numbers 19:10-13

<BLOCKQUOTE>Numbers 19 KJV<HR>[10] And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.<HR></blockquote>Again, this is another reference to someone who is involved with the creation of the ashes of purification becoming defiled themselves in the process. It is difficult for the Jew (or anyone, for that matter) to understand how something that defiles can be used to purify those who are defiled.

Numbers 19:11-13 discusses the defilement from contact with death. Death is the ultimate of defilements in the Jewish mind. The process to be purified from the defilement of death involved being sprinkled with ashes & water and then being washed, or baptized, as we will see later. I was raised a Lutheran and thought that John the Baptist came along with a "new" Chr-stian practice of baptism; he didn't. The practice of baptizing comes from the Law.<BLOCKQUOTE>John 3 KJV<HR>[25] Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. [26] And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.<HR></blockquote>Purfication from the defilement of death involves baptism. As an aside, let's take a look at a statement that Paul made in Corinthians:<BLOCKQUOTE>1 Cor 15:29 KJV<HR> Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?<HR></blockquote>Paul is arguing his point that there exists a resurrection from the dead; many did not believe in a resurrection.

Paul's logic was: "Yahweh instituted in the Law a purification from the defilement of death. This ritual is a picture of the resurrection, for resurrection from the dead (life) is the ultimate purification from the defilement of death." In other words, Paul was saying, "Otherwise, why did Yahweh give us a physical means by which one can be purified from the defilement of death, if there is no resurrection?"

Wow! Think about this a little bit. The LDS have built an entire religion around an erroneous interpretation of this verse. They are being baptized as a "substitute" for their dead friends and relatives for naught.

To be continued . . .

**rivkah** · 04-20-2002, 12:03 AM

Hyssop ~

I just never know what is going to "strike a chord" with me, but the following quote from your last post, without really understanding the why, how, what, etc, gave me chills. There are soooo many things that I don't understand -- but even the glimmers are soooo exciting !

Otherwise, why did Yahweh give us a physical means by which one can be purified from the defilement of death, if there is no resurrection?"

Thank you and best regards,
Rivkah

**Matthew23** · 04-20-2002, 11:34 AM

Sounds good, Hyssop. Keep going.

**hyssop** · 04-20-2002, 05:01 PM

Numbers 19:14-16

<BLOCKQUOTE>Numbers 19 KJV<HR>[14] This is the law, when a man dieth in a tent: all that come into the tent, and all that is in the tent, shall be unclean seven days. [15] And every open vessel, which hath no covering bound upon it, is unclean. [16] And whosoever toucheth one that is slain with a sword in the open fields, or a dead body, or a bone of a man, or a grave, shall be unclean seven days.<HR></blockquote>I believe that the vessel to which Numbers 19 refers is Yashua's tomb.<BLOCKQUOTE>Mark 15:46 KJV<HR> And [Joseph of Arimathaea] bought fine linen, and took [Yashua] down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.<HR></blockquote>The tomb was hewn out of solid rock. In order to be a clean repository for Yashua's body, this vessel (tomb) had to be covered. Thus, the Law commanded that Joseph roll the stone over the entrance of the tomb. Was the covering bound on the vessel?<BLOCKQUOTE>Matt 27:66 KJV<HR> So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.<HR></blockquote>Yes, the covering was bound upon the vessel.

Now, I'd like to focus for a moment on that eventful Sunday morning upon which the disciples found out about Yashua's resurrection.<BLOCKQUOTE>John 20 KJV<HR>[2] Then [Mary Magdalene] runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple [John], whom J-sus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the L-rd out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. [3] Peter therefore went forth, and that other disciple, and came to the sepulchre. [4] So they ran both together: and the other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. [5] And he stooping down, and looking in, saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in. [6] Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie, [7] And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself. [8] Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.<HR></blockquote>John is writing about what it took for him and Peter to believe that Yashua's body had not been stolen but, rather, that Yashua had been raised from the dead. Try to put yourself in their shoes (I mean, sandals

) as they walked into the tomb and looked at the linen clothes. The linen clothes that were wrapped around Yashua's body were empty and collapsed. When the disciples saw how the linen clothes were lying there still wrapped around themselves, they knew that someone could not have taken Yashua's body out; He had to have just sat up out of them. They then knew and believed that Yahshua had been resurrected.

Now, please pay attention to the following verse. John is writing about the events of Yashua's resurrection long after it happened. And, after he writes the account of his and Peter's race to the tomb, he thinks about something:<BLOCKQUOTE>John 20 KJV<HR>[8] Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed. [9] For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. <HR></blockquote>Can you understand what John is saying? He is recalling all of the events of that day and then thinks, "You know, if Peter and I had known this one particular scripture that demands Yashua's resurrection, we wouldn't have had to run all the way to the tomb and look in to believe."

I believe that scripture is Number 19:17. Can you look at the verse with spiritual eyes (keeping Yashua's fulfillment of scripture in mind) and see why?

**Matthew23** · 04-21-2002, 10:28 PM

Hyssop,

I'm not sure about this, but here goes...

Put ashes in jar.
Add water.
Ashes will then RISE.

That's the best I can do. This simple minded man's brain is tired. Have a good Monday

**Matthew23** · 04-24-2002, 06:11 PM

hey y'all, check out my www. Now you'll see what a dork I am. I wanted to show off my family though.

**hyssop** · 04-29-2002, 05:58 PM

Numbers 19:17

Well, I must apologize for the delay in continuing this thread; the past week was very hectic. Matthew, you've got the right idea: you're looking at the physical shadow, the Law, and attempting to see Yashua's once-and-for-all fulfillment of the spiritual.<BLOCKQUOTE>Numbers 19:17 KJV<HR> And for an unclean person they shall take of the ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running water shall be put thereto in a vessel:<HR></blockquote>Let's carefully examine the spiritual behind this physical commandment:

the ashes of the burnt heifer - If the burning of the heifer is a shadow of Yashua's suffering and death, then what remains when the burning (suffering and death) is over? The ashes represent Yashua's remains, His dead body. It is very interesting to note that the Hebrew word used for "ashes" in verses 9 & 10 is Strong's Concordance Hebrew word #665, the word most used to mean the powdery substance left after a fire: ashes. However, the word used in verse 17 that is translated "ashes" is really the Hebrew word for "dust." Does this ring any bells? Gen 3:19 "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." The commandment in Numbers requires that "running water" be given to the dust (dead body) in the vessel.

and running water shall be put thereto . . . - The literal translation of this "running water" is "living water." Does this ring any bells?<BLOCKQUOTE>John 4 KJV<HR>[10] J-sus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of G-d, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
. . .
[13] J-sus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: [14] But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.<HR></blockquote>. . . shall be put thereto in a vessel - We've already discussed how the vessel spoken of in Numbers 19 represents the tomb. Remember, thanks to Mark, we are told that the tomb was carved out of a piece of solid rock.

So, Numbers 19:17 basically says, "Eternal life must be given to Yashua's dead body in the tomb!"

Wow! So, John is thinking to himself in John 20:9, "If I had really known Numbers 19:17 that Sunday morning, I wouldn't have had to run to the tomb and go inside in order to believe that Yashua was raised from the dead."

And, that's not all. There is more information to be gleaned from Numbers 19. And that, my friend, will have to wait for another day.

**Matthew23** · 05-09-2002, 09:20 PM

I'm still here. Go on, dear Hyssop

**hyssop** · 05-13-2002, 10:41 PM

Numbers 19:18-20

<BLOCKQUOTE>Numbers 19 KJV<HR>[18] And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave: [19] And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even. [20] But the man that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he is unclean.<HR></blockquote>Is there a spiritual meaning behind these verses? Paul says, "The law is spiritual." Sure, there's a meaning. What could the sprinkling of the water of separation from sin (Num 19:9) represent? Well, remember: the water of separation is made up of the ashes (suffering and death of the Messiah) and the added running/living water (resurrection to eternal life). The water of separation = Yashua's death, burial, and resurrection. How can one sprinkle Yashua's death, burial, and resurrection?<BLOCKQUOTE>Isaiah 52 KJV<HR>[13] Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. [14] As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: [15] So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.<HR></blockquote>Sprinkling the water of separation = preaching Yashua's death, burial, and resurrection

And who is this servant of Yah who sprinkles many nations? Why, Yashua, of course. He is the only truly "clean man" who will sprinkle the unclean. His first order of business, following His resurrection, was to begin sprinkling:<BLOCKQUOTE>Luke 24 KJV<HR>[25] Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: [26] Ought not [Messiah] to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? [27] And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
. . .
[32] And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?<HR>[44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. [45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, [46] And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:[47] And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.<HR></blockquote>The disciples were also baptized into the body of Messiah. They, too, were on a mission to sprinkle the unclean. Yashua told them: "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" They sprinkled and baptized.

I wish to leave all readers of this post something to consider -<BLOCKQUOTE>The traditional view of Yashua's baptism is that He was giving us an example to follow. The scriptural account, however, does not really indicate that this was the case:<BLOCKQUOTE>Yashua came to John the Baptist to be baptized, and John refused (can you blame him?)</blockquote><BLOCKQUOTE>Matthew 3 KJV<HR>[13] Then cometh [Yashua] from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. [14] But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?<HR></blockquote>Now, consider all that we've discussed in this thread and carefully examine Yashua's response:<BLOCKQUOTE>Matthew 3 KJV<HR>[15] And [Yashua] answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.<HR></blockquote>What did Yashua mean by this statement? In your opinion, what was the purpose of His baptism?</blockquote>

**Matthew23** · 05-23-2002, 09:10 PM

It was necessary for Him to be consecrated as the Great High Priest. He Himself needed no repentance or cleansing from sin, but He identified Himself with man, becoming our substitute. This was also an event that identified Him as our Messiah, the Son of G-d (see John 1:32-34).

**hyssop** · 05-23-2002, 10:28 PM

Matt: "It was necessary for Him to be consecrated as the Great High Priest."

Yes, Yashua needed to be consecrated the Great High Priest. However, was it baptism that accomplished this? I think not. <BLOCKQUOTE>Hebrews 5 KJV<HR>[5]So also [Messiah] glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. [6] As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.<HR></blockquote>When did Yashua become the Father's only begotten son? When was He made a high priest after the order of Melchisedec?<BLOCKQUOTE>Acts 13:33 KJV<HR>[5][Yahweh] hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up [Yashua] again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.<HR></blockquote>Yashua was consecrated the Great High Priest when the Father raised Him from the dead unto eternal life. Yashua then became the "high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec" -- "after the power of an endless life. (Heb 7:16)" In my opinion, you're going to be hard-pressed to scripturally prove that Yashua was consecrated the High Priest at His baptism and not His resurrection.

Matt: "He Himself needed no repentance or cleansing from sin . . ."

I absolutely agree.

Matt: ". . . but He identified Himself with man, becoming our substitute."

I'm sorry, Matt, but I just can't agree with you here. Yes, He is the lamb that taketh away the sin of the world. But, as far as I can see, the notion that He was our "substitute" just doesn't fit with the majority of biblical references to that topic.

Matt: "This was also an event that identified Him as our Messiah, the Son of G-d"

I can agree with you here.

But . . .<HR>
Yashua did not convince John to baptize Him by saying, "It is necessary for me to be consecrated the Great High Priest; baptize me." He did not say, "It is necessary for me to become man's substitute; baptize me." And, He did not say, "It is necessary for me to be identified as the Messiah; baptize me."

He said: ". . . for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness."

What did He mean by that statement? Why did John immediately change his mind and baptize Yashua?

I think that, if we comprehend what He meant, we'll have a much better chance at understanding why He chose to be baptized.

**Matthew23** · 05-24-2002, 05:46 PM

Hyssop,

You haven't proven that He bacame the Great High Priest on the day of His resurrection. I guess you are assuming that that Psalm 2:7 talks about the day of the ressurection. So you are hard pressed also to prove when he was made a priest forever in the order of Melchisedek. Having neither end of days nor beginning of days, wouldn't He actually have ALWAYS been a priest in the order of Melchisedek? I guess that could be the topic of another thread.

You asked me what I thought he meant (about him saying "to fulfill all righteousness"). I told you what I thought. Are you going to make me guess again what it is that He "really" meant?

**hyssop** · 05-24-2002, 07:46 PM

Please accept my apologies, Matt. I thought that you gave me reasons why Yashua was baptized, but I didn't realize that you had actually addressed the question of fulfilling righteousness.

You see, Yashua told John that it was necessary that they fulfil righteousness. What is righteousness? Is it not the performance of Yahweh's will, His commandments?<BLOCKQUOTE>Psalms 119:172 KJV<HR>My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.<HR></blockquote>Yahweh's commandments are righteousness. Yashua told John that He needed to be baptized because Yahweh commanded it. We've been talking about Yashua's fulfillment of scripture--His carrying out, at a spiritual level, Yahweh's commandments. Yashua used the law as a checklist, if you will, to determine and guide His actions. Can you see Yashua fulfilling Yahweh's commandments in His death, burial, and resurrection? If so, then I hope that you can see that Yashua had scripture in mind when He went to John to be baptized. And, just as the disciple John said, "For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead," perhaps, you do not yet know the scripture that necessitated His baptism. Can you apply the principles that I have attempted to explain in this thread and find that scripture? I believe it to be in Numbers 19.

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