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**Searching** · 05-25-2002, 03:37 AM

as the tide roles away

spp...matt, I have been rooting for the Ave's. Is that wrong?

**Matthew23** · 05-25-2002, 09:30 AM

Searching,

My brother hates the Avalanche, so he's rooting for Detroit, and a lot of people I work with are pulling for the Wings. It would be great to have a little help rooting the Avs on to victory.

**Matthew23** · 05-25-2002, 09:40 AM

Hysssop,

Is this it?

Numbers 19:7 After that, the priest must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water.

I'm sorry, Hyssop, for getting an attitude with you in my last post.

**hyssop** · 05-25-2002, 11:04 PM

Numbers 19:21

Matt,

You are on the right track. We have studied into the origin of baptism: Numbers 19. We know that Yashua is The High Priest; so, I can see how you have selected Number 19:7 as the commandment that required His baptism. However, let's take a closer look at all of the verses that reference baptism in Numbers 19: <BLOCKQUOTE>Numbers 19 KJV<HR>[7]Then the priest shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp, and the priest shall be unclean until the even.[8] And he that burneth her shall wash his clothes in water, and bathe his flesh in water, and shall be unclean until the even. 
. . .
[10] And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever. 
. . .
[19] And the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at even. 
. . .
[21] And it shall be a perpetual statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even. <HR></blockquote>Of all those who are to be baptized, there is only one who is never unclean: the sprinkler. And, when we discussed verses 18-20, we saw how Yashua was the sprinkler. Also, please notice that the sprinkler only had to wash his clothes; he did not have to wash his flesh. Yashua was baptized to wash His clothes; He was without sin and had no need to wash (purify) His flesh. He was baptized because He understood that Numbers 19:21 commanded Him to do so. He and John were fulfilling righteousness.

Can you see and agree that Yashua and those involved in His death, burial, and resurrection were fulfilling commandments given the children of Israel almost 1,400 years before?

**Matthew23** · 06-04-2002, 06:09 PM

okay, makes sense. Go on Hyssop.

**hyssop** · 06-04-2002, 06:15 PM

Who killed Yashua?

If one looks at the "big picture," who is ultimately responsible for the death of Yashua?

The Jews?
The Romans?
The sinner?
Yashua?
Yaweh?

Hint: 1 Peter 2:24 & many others

**Matthew23** · 06-06-2002, 04:51 PM

Uh, the sinner. That's my final answer.

**hyssop** · 06-06-2002, 08:37 PM

You know, Matt, I like your sense of humor . . . and, I was short a smile today. Thanks

Yep, that's my final answer, too.

So . . . did you, in your sin as those men in Acts 2:23, kill Yashua?

**Matthew23** · 06-06-2002, 11:02 PM

If the wages of sin is death, then I deserve to die. However, He bore my sins and died in my place. Now because He chose to lay down His life for me, I may live.

I thank Him for willingly taking my punishment. He knew the hairs on my head and the sins I would commit when He took the nails.

Well then I guess I did kill Him, because of my sins.

John 10:14-18...
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

**hyssop** · 06-09-2002, 01:10 PM

Yes, Matt. If we claim that Yashua died for our sins, we have to admit that we participated in His death; we killed Him.

But, as we've seen previously, Yashua is the spiritual fulfillment of the sacrifices. So, if we claim that Yashua is our Passover lamb, then we sacrificed Him in exact accordance with Yahweh's commandments (on the 14th of the first month in the afternoon, no bone was broken, etc.). In our sin, we killed the Red Heifer in exact accordance with Yahweh's commandments (killed it outside the gate, before the priest, etc.). We have performed ALL of the sacrifices in exact accordance with Yahweh's commandments.

So, we, in our sin, have accomplished the sacrificial requirements commanded by Yahweh in His law. This is grace (a free gift of righteousness), as Paul discusses in Romans 5. This righteousness (killing Yashua) is as filthy rags, but we did it. What then should we do, once we realize that our sin killed the Holy One of Israel? Turn from sin; do what Yahweh commands. Because, if we don't, we continue to participate in Yashua's sacrifice and prove ourselves to be performing willful sin against Yahweh's spirit, for which there will be no forgiveness.

**Matthew23** · 06-09-2002, 02:04 PM

So, what you're saying then, is that by receiving the gift of grace, we still fall short in that the righteousness we would then have is but filthy rags. And the only way to obtain true righteousness is to keep the law.

Do I have the right idea of what you've been trying to tell me? I just want to make sure I understand this.

**hyssop** · 06-09-2002, 10:53 PM

What I am trying to say is:

righteous = Yahweh's commandments

physical unrighteousness = sin = breaking Yahweh's physical commandments = killing Yashua = keeping Yahweh's spiritual sacrificial commandments = righteousness which comes by faith in Yashua Messiah

This is not a partial righteousness; it is 100% righteousness. I, though faith in the Messiah, can stand before my Creator and say, "I have kept all of your commandments; I am righteous (given to me by my participation in Yashua's death)." You see, when I stole, coveted, bore false witness, et cetera, I killed Yashua and brought my sacrifice. Had Yashua not laid down His life as my Passover lamb, I would still be in my sin with no hope. However, once I realize that my physical sin killed Yashua, I should flee from sin and want to conform to Yahweh's will, His law.<BLOCKQUOTE>Romans 7:22 KJV<HR>For I delight in the law of G-d after the inward man:<HR></blockquote>Are we justified by the works of the law? No. The work of the law is the physical keeping of Yahweh's commandments. We cannot be justified by the works of the law, because we are flesh and unable to conform perfectly to Yaweh's law. However, bearing in mind the following, which of Yaweh's commandments do you think that we should teach that one no longer observe?<BLOCKQUOTE>Matthew 5:19 KJV<HR>Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.<HR></blockquote>

**Matthew23** · 06-10-2002, 08:32 PM

to my pal Hyssop,

I'm sorry. Maybe it's because this "doctrine" is new to me, but it seems very twisted. I'm still not clear if you believe that the sinner is made righteous by observing the law, or if you believe that the sinner is made righteous by grace through faith in J-sus.

You know what I believe. I am what you would call a "so-called-Christian." I believe in observing ALL of the commandments of G-d that are required of me. I have much to study about such things as:

When to observe the Sabbath?
Am I still required to observe the Sabbath?
Pork- to eat or not to eat?

My wife could have a pork chop and not think twice about it. I've asked her in the past, "If it's okay for you to eat a pig, then is it okay for you to commit adultery, worship a golden idol, or maybe tell your mom and dad to buzz off?" This is my delema. I'm not sure where to draw the line. I know about Peter's vision, how all the animals were made clean. But if G-d didn't want the ancient Hebrews to eat a ham sandwish, why would He change his mind later on? I'm just a modern day Gentile, but I know I need to honor G-d to the best of my ability. Does that mean that I need to follow all the laws of the Jews? Am I rambling or what?

This Numbers 19 stuff that you're sharing with me, it's going to take a while to sink in. I sometimes have to read your posts 2 or 3 times to understand it. This has been a great conversation. I appreciate you sharing with me. I realize that you feel that it is your duty as a "disciple" to share with me what you believe is the true gospel. That's part of the reason why I am here also, to be a lighthouse (yeah, another Christian cliche). This is also a great learning process for me.

I will have to share with you, sometime later, how 9-11 changed MY life. (you know, they say 9-11 changed every American in one way or another. Don't ask me the "they" are

.) It has to do with a message board similar to this one, and a Muslim I befriended name Imran.

okay, okay, I'll shut up now

**hyssop** · 06-11-2002, 12:00 AM

Matt,

First of all, thanks for hanging in here with me. You say that I know what you believe; that is not entirely so. I think, however, that I do know what you've been taught. Believe it or not, I feel that this puts you at a disadvantage (Please refer to Romans 3:1-2). You have mixed emotions about Yahweh's law: "Should I do what He says or has it all been done away, and I can now ignore it? Well, not all of it. Just selected parts of it. Hmmm. Which parts?" I know how you feel. I've been there; I was raised a Lutheran and attended a Baptist church as a young father. Now, don't get the impression that I think that I've got it all figured out, because I have only discovered how little I really know.

I don't want to belabor this righteousness point, but you are right: there is no righteousness apart from keeping Yahweh's law. Now, before your pastor/minister brands me as a heretic (he probably would anyway), let me explain:

David states in Ps. 119:172 that all of Yahweh's commandments are righteousness. Fundamentally, if you want to be righteous, keep all of Yahweh's commandments. That's great. Except for one little problem: there aren't very many who have managed to keep all of Yahweh's commandments. I believe that the scriptures only mention two: Abraham (Gen 26:5) and Yashua (Heb 4:15).

So, that leaves all of the billions of the rest of us out in the cold. We have no righteousness (we have physically broken one or more of Yahweh's commandments); we are doomed. Thanks be to Yahweh that He sent Yashua to change all of that. When Yashua died as our sacrifice, He gave us the opportunity to keep ALL of Yahweh's law. When I did not covet, I had righteousness through the works (physical observance) of the law; when I coveted, I was bringing Yashua, my sacrifice (according to Yahweh's law in a spiritual sense) through faith.

Now that I realize that my sin was responsible for Yashua's death, I want to change. I no longer delight in coveting (because I know that, when I covet, I am participating in Yashua's death); I am delivered from Egypt (slavery to sin) with a mighty hand, and I leave in haste. I no longer wonder if I HAVE to avoid using Yahweh's name in vain; I WANT to avoid it. I no longer wonder if I HAVE to observe the Sabbath; I WANT to observe the Sabbath.

Actually, you may find it amusing to hear the logic behind my keeping the Sabbath for the first time. I had been looking into the issue of a Saturday Sabbath, went to the library and studied the Julian and Gregorian calendars (checking to see if days might have gotten lost), and finally determined that Saturday should still be Saturday (I didn't think to consider that the Jews have been counting six and resting one for millennia). I asked my Baptist minister about the Sabbath and wanted to know why we, as Baptists, observed Sunday instead of Saturday. His bottom line was to quote to me his New Testament support for how we can observe ANY day and that the Baptists just happen to pick Sunday. I thought to myself, "Well, if it doesn't really matter to the Baptists what day we observe as the Sabbath, I can choose to observe Saturday JUST IN CASE it does matter to Yahweh. So, I've got all of my bases covered!" I observed my first Sabbath over twenty years ago and never looked back.

You mentioned Peter's vision and how it seems to indicate that all meats (including pork) are now okay to eat. What do you think of a new thread on the topic under General Theology/Biblical Study?

**Matthew23** · 12-17-2002, 10:46 PM

THE REVIVAL OF AN OLD THREAD!

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Sounds like a serious form of substitution to me

Matt

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