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**ImAHebrew** · 04-09-2002, 08:37 AM

All are righteous.

Shalom Thummim,

Welcome to the Tzaddikim Forum. Your views do interest me and I would like to respond to you. I have had a break from posting for a little while, and since you have posted, I have decided to pick back up (I have several other threads to respond to also).

I have followed you at Lo-Ammin, and I must say that I agree with your complaint against "Christianity," and the "Jesus" that they follow. Almost 2000 years of hatred and violence against the Yahudim do tend to make the Yahudim paranoid and suspicious of "Christianity." It's also very apparent that no form of "salvation" was brought to the Yahudim through the doctrines and teachings of Christiandom. This we agree upon.

Although, there is one aspect of your teaching I do disagree with. You teach that "all" of Israel was made righteous by Yahweh. My belief is that all of mankind is included in the proclamations of Isaiah:

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am Elohim, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in Yahweh have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25 In Yahweh shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Now Thummin, I have a belief that ALL of mankind has been given the free gift of righteousness, not just physical Israel or the Yahudim. "Christianity" has no awareness of this righteousness, for they have a deluded mind in thinking that "Jesus" substitutes righteousness to sinners. You and I both know that is false, for Yahweh is not a substitutionalist, but Yahweh does promise that HE will be the source of righteousness to ALL.

The keeping of the Torah is OUR righteousness:

Deut 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before Yahweh our Elohim, as He hath commanded us.

And the keeping of the Torah is not that difficult:

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of Yahweh thy Elohim, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto Yahweh thy Elohim with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Moshe here states that the DOING of the Torah is very near us, and that we do not need someone going up to heaven or crossing the sea to do it for us. Yahweh has placed it in our heart and in our mouth that we can keep His commandments and statutes which are written in the book of the Torah. My question to you Thummin, have you figured it out yet, do you or the Yahudim know how to perform this righteousness? Have you been saved? If you haven't, I would like to share with you how I believe I have.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew

**Thummim** · 04-09-2002, 12:23 PM

Have you been saved?

I'mAHebrew writes; Have you been saved?

Being saved is an act of YHWH. The ends of the earth is where his people were to be found. YHWH saves lives. The mangod (jesus) saves souls, something that is unique to the New Testement.

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8 But thou, (**Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend**).

-->The author wants to make it absolutely clear of whom he is talking about.

9 (**Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth**), and called thee (**from the chief "men" thereof**), and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. Isa. 41: 8, 9

-->Here YHWH calls his servant Israel, {a man}. This would work with Isa. 53. The man "Israel", YHWH's servant, has invoked his Eloheems saving arm. This servant now has a decree of righteousness. (Isa. 44: 20) In verse 41: 13-14, it again speaks of this afflicted servant, Israel. In the context of Jeremiah 24, we find that not all of Israel is esteemed as unrighteous. A righteous Israel also serves in Israel's punishment. It is this righteous servant that intercedes for the rest of YHWH's people. {My own personal interpretation of Isa. 53} The faith of the christianity cannot relinquish Isa. 53 to the JEWish people, to allow Israel's righteousness because it would void their faith. So christianity is a different faith from the faith that which the tanakh espouses. I'm convinced that no amount of the truth, shown by verse, is safe from the spiritual interpretation of christians. When YHWH goes after the goy'im, it is in the context of his people. Now if YHWH wants to distroy the (*ends of the earth--> the christian prophecy*), you can bet that it is because of what these "ends" have done to YHWH's name, which his people bear literally. YHWH saves his people from their enemies, when he is pleased with them, as it is declared through the texts of the tanakh's author's.

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4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and (**people for thy life**).

-->This is the kind of salvation {war} that is being spoken of.

5 Fear not: for I am with thee: (**I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west**);

6 I will say (**to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back**): bring my sons from far, and (**my daughters from the ends of the earth**); Isa. 43: 4 - 6

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9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for (**YHWH hath comforted his people**), he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

-->See Isa. 40: 2

10 (**YHWH hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations**); and (**all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God**).

-->(see Isa. 53: 1) Salvation here means war.

11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, (**that bear the vessels of YHWH**). Isa. 52: 9 - 11

-->Bound for Jerusalem, these carry the holy vessels that Cyrus has returned to Israel.

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...These verses of text do not speak of the salvation of the goy'im. {my researched opinion}

I'mAHebrew writes;

Although, there is one aspect of your teaching I do disagree with. You teach that "all" of Israel was made righteous by Yahweh. My belief is that all of mankind is included in the proclamations of Isaiah:

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...No gentile that discludes the JEWish people, from "their" blanket decree of righteousness, should be included in YHWH's mercy. These people have denighed the righteousness of the holy people, to whom these decree's belong. They believe in their own (christian) salvation, while believing in the damnation of YHWH's people. Christianity wants to own the gates of heaven. The salvation of YHWH, is not a part of mans dominion. We can certainly discuss these things if you want, using the texts of the tanakh as evidence.

....Michael

**Glori** · 10-01-2002, 12:08 PM

MIchael,

In response to your post to I'mAHebrew, I would like to reply this; I am not defending that Jesus is the Messiah, but I do state boldly that you have confused Christian doctrine with what the N T actually says. It was reading it until I was familiar with the whole writing that sent me back to following the statutes of Israel. That is a major part of the great deception that exists within the Christian faiths. The Christians say with their mouths that they bless Israel, then follow the statutes of all the paganry that went before.

I say "before" because those that believed that the Messiah had come in the 1st century AD, were referred to as a "Jewish sect" by the Roman until the Roman/pagan calendar was adopted into the faith in the 3rd and 4th century AD. If Christians would consider that the Jews are the only people that follow the laws, judgments and statutes that were given to seperate Israel from paganry when they read prophecy, they would realize that none of the warnings are to the Jews, because even if the Messiah was born in 4 BC and just not realized by the Jews, that is not at all the same as following pagan gods and the adjoining pollutions. Even those Jews that have been given over to homosexuality and other abominations, do not follow pagan gods.

Praise to the G-d of of the Jew, and bless His Holy people!

Glori

**Thummim** · 10-01-2002, 01:06 PM

Salvation?

...Glory, I'm not exactly sure of what you are saying because of a lack of listed texts for me to read. If the point is that the early christians were thought of as JEWs by the Romans, I agree. But they were not thought of as followers of YHWH by the rest of the JEWish people. The YHWH JEW and the "Jesus" JEW didn't get along. I think that the point that I wanted to get past, is that salvation was a matter of YHWH's own making rather than that of believing in a man and conceding to his messiahship to allow entry into heaven. YHWH saves the lives of his people when he provides them salvation in the tanakh. But christianity saves souls and thus has purchased the gates of heaven with their faith. Does YHWH ever save a soul for entry into heaven, as opposed to saving the lives of his people upon the earth? This is the very center of the change in christian thinking. Salvation has become something else. But for this philosophy to work, YHWH must first condemn all so they will have to seek redemption for their souls. But YHWH didn't curse the earths populations. He curses those who curse his people. This is the mitigating factor behind the day of YHWH {the LORD} if you read Joel. {Jo. 3: 2, 3: 14 KJV} For christianity, one is born in sin which needs healing {which christian theology can provide} but in the tanakh, the heavens of YHWH become the domain of his people when he takes back the spirits of his people to himself, when they give up the ghost. When I can understand what you are saying a little better, I will try to answer you more fully.

....Michael

**damirati** · 12-09-2002, 10:34 AM

@ImAHebrew...
You mentioned telling someone how you had been saved. I would like to hear this, and know what your understanding of salvation is. Thank you!
Shalom,
~Selah

**ImAHebrew** · 12-11-2002, 07:58 AM

Salvation from sin.

Welcome and Shalom damirati,

The salvation which I was speaking of is the salvation FROM sin. The Messiah is in the business of TAKING away a sinners sin from them. This process begins at the point of conversion, and ends when we finish running the race. Do we stumble in the process? Sure, but it is not from the heart, for a converted heart that has been delivered OUT of sin, truly wants to be free from their former way of life--the life of sin.

Most professing christian faiths speak of a salvation that is accomplished while remaining IN sin, and this salvation is a salvation that punishes a substitute in place of the sinner. Their focus is on taking away the PENALTY of their sin, and not the sin itself. They fail to realize that ALL sinners died WHEN Yahshua died (2 Cor 5:14). The soul that sins shall die. A sinner satisfies their penaltly of sin, through death. ALL sinners DIED when He died, therefore the penalty of sin has has been paid.

On the other hand, when a substitute dies in the place of someone else, the one deserving of death does NOT die with the substitute, ONLY the substitute dies. This cleary is not the process of salvation which was instituted by the original Church. The message was cleary a message of putting the sinner to death. A message of being crucified WITH Messiah, dying WITH Him, and being raise to a NEW life IN Him. The language of the Messiah dying "in our stead" is not found in the NT.

The beginning steps that we take in this process of salvation is accomplished through faith. This faith is based upon the Spiritual fulfillment of Scripture. Scripture demands that sinners sacrifice for their sin...this is a just requirement of the Torah. Those who accomplish this just requirement of the Torah are RIGHTEOUS. The Yehudim of Yahshua's day failed to accept the "Spiritual" fulfillment of Scripture, for their eyes were blinded to where they could only "see" the physical fulfillment of Scripture. But those who were called by Elohim, believed in the Spiritual fulfillment of the Scripture, thus they received the righteousness that comes through faith. In a nutshell, this belief is that a sinner did accomplish what the Torah required of them in that they did sacrifice their sin offering and all other offerings required of them for their sin, through the sacrifice of Yahshua. The Torah requires that we sacrifice for our sin, and to my shame, I confess and admit that I did kill Yahshua through my sin. Thus, my desire for righteousness/justification through the sacrifice of Yahshua, PROVES that I was a sinner (Gal 2:17). This is the essence of Grace. Elohim has graciously given all sinners this "free gift" of righteousness. Righteousness is the DOING of Yahweh's commandments (Ps 119:172), and sinners have accomplished the righteousness required of them by sacrificing Yahshua. This is simple, yet very hard to accept, but those whom Yahweh is drawing through the Spirit will not deny this truth. This Grace, this free gift of righteousness teaches us the true path to follow, and that path is stated here:

Titus 2:11-15 For the grace of Elohim has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great El and Savior, Messiah Yahshua,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
15 These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Blessings in The Name,

ImAHebrew

**ShemTov** · 08-01-2006, 04:16 AM

Than would this mean that every goy soul would transform into a jewish soul? And would it mean, that blood jews dont really matter as blood jews, but have become jews that believe in the true G-d but follow the teachings of a false depiction of G-d?

**hyssop** · 08-05-2006, 07:44 PM

Shem tov, ShemTov, and welcome to the forum.

In a spiritual sense, there is no difference between the goy and the Jew; both have sinned and have not kept Hashem's commandments (Rom 3:23). Thus, both have the opportunity, through faith, to lay hold on the free gift (grace) of righteousness (keeping Hashem's commandments) by realizing that they brought their sacrifice in exact accordance with Hashem's commands when they killed Yahshua Messiah through sin.

The Jew, however, has a great advantage over the goy (Rom 3:1-2). All too often, the goyim ignore Hashem's commandments. They've ignored Shabbat, the other Hagim, and have little interest in studying or keeping the Torah. Sadly, they have no foundation upon which to build their gospel and have reached a substitutional view of the work of Messiah. At times, Israel had the same view of the physical sacrifices, and the prophets had much to say against that practice (Mic 6:7).

Scripture indicates that Israel's blindness will some day be healed (Rom 11:25-27), and they will see Messiah as he really is in the Tenach (2 Cor 3:14-16). When that happens, Israel will see the error of the goyim and claim Yahshua as their Messiah in a way that the world has not known for 2,000 years. He will again turn a people from their sin to righteousness rather than, as erroneously interpreted for two millennia, dying "in their stead" and allowing them to continue to live in sin.

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