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**hyssop** · 06-23-2003, 11:43 PM

I'm leaving for CA on Tuesday and will not be back until Sunday afternoon, so I'm going to "hit and run."

Phil 2:7 says that Yeshua "emptied himself, and took upon him the form of a servant." Of what did he empty himself? I believe that he emptied himself of an equality with Hashem and became a man. The difference, however, was that Yeshua had Hashem's spirit from his birth and, with its help, did not sin; that is, he did not succomb to the pulls of the flesh that act upon all of us. This spirit also allowed Yeshua to do mighty works and miracles--most of which were also performed by Yeshua's followers who believed and were baptized with this same spirit.

I'll talk to you in a week or so.

**simchat_torah** · 06-28-2003, 11:30 PM

Excellent topic.

I impatiently await Hyssops response...

But in the meantime, on Sunday, I shall post a few Jewish expectations and theologies of who this 'son of elohim' is.

Shalom,
Yafet.

**Matthew23** · 07-02-2003, 10:11 PM

I'm LEAVING!

My family and I are heading out of town tomorrow at 3:30 p.m...

...heading for New Smyrna Beach, Florida...

I look forward to reading some additions to this thread when I return

.

Talk to you all later,
matt

**Matthew23** · 07-18-2003, 05:06 PM

Florida was great. I saw the Atlantic Ocean.

...I don't see any more replies here though

I hope everyone is doing well.

matt

**hyssop** · 07-20-2003, 11:41 AM

Welcome back, Matt. I'm off for Raleigh, NC, today; Austin, TX, tomorrow afternoon; and back to St. Louis on Tuesday PM. I have not spent a lot of time on the Net lately.

AND . . . I believe that I was the last to comment on Y'shua, G-d and/or man.

I've got another (related) question regarding to Y'shua: What does John 1:14 mean when it states that Y'shua is the only begotten of the Father?

**Matthew23** · 07-20-2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by hyssop
Phil 2:7 says that Yeshua "emptied himself, and took upon him the form of a servant." Of what did he empty himself? I believe that he emptied himself of an equality with Hashem

I believe that it was glory that Messiah left behind when He became a man. Notice that in Phillipians 2:6-11, Messiah goes from "being in very nature G-d", to emptying himself, to being obedient, to being exalted in the glory of G-d the Father.

This is why Messiah prayed: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5)

I believe that Messiah was G-d before he became a man.
I believe that Messiah was G-d when he walked on earth as a man.
I believe that Messiah is and always will be G-d.

It was necessary for Him to give up his glory in order to be a servant. He was a "King", but wasn't recognized as such because of His "servant nature" and His "appearance as a man". He was rejected as the "King of the Jews".

Perhaps He had been rejected as their King even sometime before...(1 Samuel 8:7)

sincerely,
matt

**hyssop** · 07-23-2003, 12:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Matthew23<HR>I believe that Messiah was G-d when he walked on earth as a man.<HR></blockquote><BLOCKQUOTE>Hebrews 4:15 KJV<HR> For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.<HR></blockquote><BLOCKQUOTE>James 1:13 KJV<HR> Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of G~d: for G~d cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:<HR></blockquote>If G~d cannot be tempted and Y'shua was G~d, then Y'shua could not be tempted. Scripture states that Y'shua was tempted. Given this, the only conclusion to which I can come is that Y'shua emptied himself of this equality with G~d and was NOT G~d while he was on earth.

**Matthew23** · 07-23-2003, 04:40 PM

re: temptation of Yeshua

I'm going to learn something.

I'll get back with you after I do.

matt

**hyssop** · 07-24-2003, 10:27 PM

re: temptation of Yeshua

Has it occurred to you that you may have just done so?

**Matthew23** · 07-25-2003, 09:06 PM

I believe that Yeshua was both man and G-d. If He was just simply G-d, He couldn't have died. As a man he was tempted. He is our Great High Priest who can be "touched with the feeling of our infirmities", yet He had neither a beginning of days nor an end of life. How can someone who is simply "man" exist from "alpha" to "omega"?

I was reading Hebrews 2 just now and something popped out at me. Verse 10. "In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that G-d, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering." Perhaps a part of that suffering (surely G-d cannot suffer neither) was the temptation? It was just plain necessary for Him to be made like us in order to save us; to be our substitute

and die for us.

As surely as the New Testament is true, Yeshua was and will always be G-d. If He was not G-d, why did Thomas call Him so?

Messiah was the Son of G-d, yet He was the Son of man. He was in the beginning with God, yet He was God. When the Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us, surely He was still God.

"What manner of man is this that even the wind and the waves obey Him?"

with love,
matt

**hyssop** · 07-26-2003, 04:58 PM

Matt,

Listen to yourself:
G~d cannot die ................. Y'shua died
G~d cannot be tempted ... Y'shua was tempted
G~d cannot suffer ............. Y'shua suffered

You asked how Y'shua can have no beginning and not be G~d. We've already seen the scripture that states that Y'shua emptied himself. You say that this statement means that he emptied himself of glory. BUT, what does the scripture say?<BLOCKQUOTE>Philippians 2 NAS<HR>[5] Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Chr~st J~sus, [6] who, although He existed in the form of G~d, did not regard equality with G~d a thing to be grasped, [7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Chr~st J~sus, <HR></blockquote>Y'shua existed at creation. He gave up equality with G~d to become a man.<BLOCKQUOTE>Matthew23<HR>If He was not G-d, why did Thomas call Him so?<HR></blockquote>I would reply that Thomas called Y'shua his L~rd and his G~d subsequent to Y'shua's resurrection unto eternal life.

Your Yeshua seems to have multiple personality disorder. He dies, yet he doesn't; he is tempted, yet he isn't; and he suffers, yet he doesn't really suffer.

Did he also pray to himself in the garden of Gethsemane . . . while dying on the cross? Come on, Matt. Take a close look at what you're saying. Why must you force the scriptures to say what they don't? I believe that your faith requires G~d to die, so no matter what the scripture says about G~d's grace being upon him (Luke 2:40) or his growing in favor with G~d (Luke 2:52), you must insist that he was G~d. You are stubbornly ignoring what the scripture says. And, hey, that's okay with me; I'm not the one that you have to worry about.

**Matthew23** · 07-26-2003, 06:00 PM

Hyssop,

I'm a little confused as to what you believe.

Is this correct:
Yeshua was YHWH before He was a man.
Yeshua emptied Himself and was then only a man, not YHWH.
Yeshua upon His resurrection was YHWH once again.

?

matt

**hyssop** · 07-26-2003, 09:15 PM

I will attempt to explain my view:

In the beginning, Y'shua, the Word, was with YHWH. By "with YHWH," I mean that He was an integral part of the ONE YHWH; He was YHWH.

Two thousand years ago, according to the plan that YHWH had set forth from the foundation of the world, Y'shua voluntarily emptied himself of this equality with YHWH and became a man--just like you and me. EXCEPT, he had a 100% dose of YHWH's spirit. With the power of this spirit, he was able to overcome the temptation of the flesh and conquer sin and Satan. In the process, he was killed. After three days, YHWH resurrected him unto eternal life (he didn't resurrect himself). Y'shua became a spirit being; in Thomas' eyes, having seen this resurrected being, Y'shua was not only his Master (L~rd) but also his YHWH. Since Thomas, five minutes before he saw the resurrected Y'shua, didn't even believe that Y'shua was alive, I don't know that you can hang your doctrinal belief that Y'shua is YHWH at this time just because Thomas thought so.

Paul states in I Cor 15:27 that YHWH has put everything under Y'shua's feet--under his authority. And, Y'shua is sitting at YHWH's right hand at the moment. We are waiting for the last enemy, death, to be destroyed. At the end time, the Jubilee will be fulfilled and all things will return to the original owner, YHWH. YHWH's kingdom will have grown, and Y'shua will once again (along with all those that are his) be an integral part of YHWH. So that, as Paul says in I Cor 15:28, "G~d may be all in all."

**Matthew23** · 07-27-2003, 06:59 PM

I just realized that I gave the wrong reference in my original post to this thread. Here's the one I meant to give:

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore Adonai himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23
23"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" --which means, "G-d with us."

This tells me that Yeshua was YHWH when He was "with us".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

originally posted by Hyssop
After three days, YHWH resurrected him unto eternal life (he didn't resurrect himself). Y'shua became a spirit being

A spirit being? You don't believe that His body was resurrected? What was it that Thomas touched with his hands?

originally posted by Hyssop
Since Thomas, five minutes before he saw the resurrected Y'shua, didn't even believe that Y'shua was alive, I don't know that you can hang your doctrinal belief that Y'shua is YHWH at this time just because Thomas thought so.

Yeshua didn't exaclty refute the idea, did He? Rather, He went on to say: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

I believe that Yeshua was always G-d except for that one moment:

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Yeshua cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My G-d, my G-d, why have you forsaken me?"

In that moment, Yeshua wore my sin upon His head.

Man, that's love.

matt

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