Messiah: The Son of Elohim...

[hyssop]

<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=1>Matthew23</font><HR>A <I>spirit</i> being? You don't believe that His <I>body</i> was resurrected? What was it that Thomas touched with his hands?<HR></blockquote>I believe that, once resurrected, Y'shua can take any form that he wants. Yes, he had flesh and bone; he ate fish and honeycomb. On the other hand, the disciples who spoke with him on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24) did not recognize him. To get into the room with Thomas in John 20, he passed through shut doors. The scripture states that men have entertained angels and didn't know it. Why? Because a spirit being can appear to be physical. Is YHWH made of flesh and bone, or is He a spirit?

If the only moment of time that Y'shua was a man and not YHWH was the instant of his death, then please explain to whom he was praying in Gethsemane. Himself? Did he grow in favor with himself (Luke 2:52)? You appear to find it necessary to state that he was not YHWH when he died, because YHWH can't die. But, you refuse to apply this logic to the rest of the story. Did Y'shua raise himself from the dead? I don't think so. Can YHWH be tempted as Y'shua was? Scripture says, "No." There just seems to be so many scriptural contradictions to the concept that Y'shua was YHWH while present with us in the flesh. And, yet, you cling to this popular doctrine--the reasons for which I do not understand.

[Matthew23]

What does this scripture mean to you?...

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[hyssop]

I don't think that we disagree about Y'shua's existance as/with YHWH before Abraham.

The question at hand is whether or not Y'shua was YHWH while here.

So, I'm still waiting for explanations for:
- how Y'shua grew in grace with himself (Luke 2:52)
- how he prayed to himself (e.g. Matt 26:39 "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou <I>wilt</i>.")
- how he was tempted and, yet, the scripture states that YHWH cannot be tempted (James 1:13)

Bonus Question: How did he raise himself from the dead when the scripture clearly states that YHWH raised Y'shua and said: this day have I begotten thee (Acts 13:33)? The verse does not read, "This day have I begotten <I>me</i>."

I'm sure that, given a little more time, I can find other examples that seem to say (to me, at least) that the concept that Y'shua was YHWH while here is simply not supportable in the context of the Bible.

[bantha]

Hello all

I don't get around here often enough, but when I do I find the most interesting discussions.

Hyssop - you've said a few times:

Did Y'shua raise himself from the dead? I don't think so.

What do you make of this passage?

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up ... 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

I imagine my other question(s) will be answered as this discussion goes along, but I'll ask just in case:

Am I right in my understanding? You believe Jesus was God before He came to earth, but while He was on earth He was no longer God?

If so, is He God now? Will He be God in eternity? If not, how does this effect God being One?

Thank you for your time,
bantha

[Matthew23]

Originally posted by hyssop
I'm still waiting for explanations for:
- how Y'shua grew in grace with himself (Luke 2:52)
- how he prayed to himself (e.g. Matt 26:39 "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou <I>wilt</i>.")
- how he was tempted and, yet, the scripture states that YHWH cannot be tempted (James 1:13)

Bonus Question: How did he raise himself from the dead when the scripture clearly states that YHWH raised Y'shua and said: this day have I begotten thee (Acts 13:33)? The verse does not read, "This day have I begotten <I>me</i>." [/B]

These are great questions. I must start by saying that, though I do believe Yeshua to be G-d, I also believe that being born of a woman made of dust, He also had a human nature. This human nature is what had to grow up, prayed, and was tempted. I know it seems goofy, but how can I deny what the prophets said?... Isaiah 7:14 (Immanuel)? and Isaiah 9:6 (Mighty G-d)?

And why did He have to use the phrase "I am" to the Jews to tells us that He existed before Abraham? Surely there is more to what He meant than just having existed before Abraham, as even the Jews believed He meant more, for they picked up stones to stone Him!

Consider Romans 9:5...

theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Messiah, who is G-d over all, forever praised! (NIV)

Their ancestors were great people of G-d, and Messiah himself was a Jew as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is G-d, who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! (NLT)

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Messiah who is G-d over all, blessed forever. (ESV)

of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Messiah came, who is over all, the eternally blessed G-d. (NKJV)

According to the flesh? As far as his human nature is concerned? The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. Immanuel. G-d with us. I call Him mighty G-d, just like Isaiah said He would be called. Also, I can't assume that Thomas erred when He called Him G-d. Like I said, Messiah did not refuse to be called such.

with love,
matt

[hyssop]

Hi, bantha:

You have brought up some insightful questions. Thanks for the reply.

You ask if I believe that Y'shua was NOT G~d while he was here on earth. That is correct. John 1 states that the Word was made flesh; therefore, I think that it is safe to presume that Y'shua is the Word that John is talking about. According to John 1:1, this Word both existed with G~D and was G~d. How can something be WITH G~d and simultaneously BE G~d? G~d's name, Elohim, is a plural Hebrew word. The Chr~stian world is very comfortable with the notion that our single G~d consists of three beings in one. I am suggesting that, perhaps, G~d consists of many (not just three) in one. Before creation, Y'shua decided that He would not hold on to his portion of the g~dhead but, rather, give it up for our sakes. So, when he was here, he was not G~d; he was 100% human--he grew in knowledge and stature; he pleased his heavenly father; etc.

Is he g~d now? Well, he's endowed with eternal life and the power of g~d over every aspect of G~d's realm--but he's sitting at the G~d's right hand, Bantha. He is not sitting beside himself. I Cor 15:20-28 explains that G~d has given all authority to Y'shua (with the exception of authority over G~d himself). Once the last enemy (death) is destroyed, then will Y'shua (and all that he has) will return unto G~d. Only then, will G~d be all-in-all and Y'shua will again be with G~d; and, in fact, he will then BE G~d.

I've got to get some sleep, but I wanted to give you a little to think about.

[Matthew23]

I was breaking out some "seasonal" tunes today. The lyrics to this song made me think of our discussion here:

Tears are falling, hearts are breaking
How we need to hear from God
You've been promised, we've been waiting
Welcome Holy Child
Welcome Holy Child

Hope that you don't mind our manger
How I wish we would have known
But long awaited Holy Stranger
Make yourself at home
Please make yourself at home

Bring your peace into our violence
Bid our hungry souls be filled
World now breaking Heaven's silence
Welcome to our world
Welcome to our world

Fragile finger sent to heal us
Tender brow prepared for thorn
Tiny heart whose blood will save us
Unto us is born
Unto us is born

So wrap our injured flesh around you
Breathe our air and walk our sod
Rob our sin and make us holy
Perfect Son of God
Perfect Son of God

Welcome to our world

I will always celebrate the birth of the Passover Lamb, whose unleaved body was broken so that I may have atonement, jubilee, rest, and a ticket into His kingdom when the trumpet blows.

blessings,
matt

[Robin]

unfamiliar tune

Dear Matt,

This is powerful:

So wrap our injured flesh around you
Breathe our air and walk our sod

Love,
Robin

[Matthew23]

powerful enough to jerk a couple tears from my eyes...

The song is called "Welcome to our World" by Michael W Smith.

[Matthew23]

Hyssop, I was wondering about something you said: you said that Messiah is now a "spirit being".

I was wondering, if that is so, what happened to the body that was laid in the tomb?

sincerely,
matt

[hyssop]

I thought that I answered this question in this post above. He was changed -- in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

[Matthew23]

Originally posted by hyssop
Once the last enemy (death) is destroyed, then will Y'shua (and all that he has) will return unto G~d. Only then, will G~d be all-in-all and Y'shua will again be with G~d; and, in fact, he will then BE G~d.

Do you believe that you will be G-d too?

[hyssop]

If I am one with Y'shua and he one with G~d then I, too, will be part of the G~dhead. Yes, my hope is to be one with G~d.

[Matthew23]

So that's what "all in all" means?

[hyssop]

That's what I get out of 1 Cor 15:20-28.