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Becoming a Child of YHVH - Judaism 101

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  • Becoming a Child of YHVH - Judaism 101

    Originally posted by hyssop
    Phil 2:7 says that Yeshua "emptied himself, and took upon him the form of a servant." Of what did he empty himself?
    This is a classic example of a translation made to suit the Church's Christology in order to justify the Church's theological assertions. However, before we can examine this passage ... some necessary background information must be set forth.

    If you haven't read Ellis Rivikin's book, "Hidden Revolution: The Pharisee's Search for the Kingdom Within," then I suggest you do so. Yeshua was not the only person preaching the "Kingdom of Heaven Within."

    For the plebeian proto-rabbinic Separatists (Pharisees), who were practicle men seeking practicle solutions to the problems their fellow countrymen faced, the "Kingdom of Heaven" (Malkut Shamayim) meant the "Rulership of YHVH" in one's daily life. For these plebeian sages the Kingdom of Heaven was not:

    1. Pie-in-the-sky.
    2. A little log cabin over in Glory Land.
    3. Some futuristic utopia.
    4. An earthly kingdom some Zealot-Messiah would win by force of arms.

    For the plebeian sages, the "Kingdom of Heaven" was a present reality in the "here-and-now." It had only to be actualized via the activation of one's Good Impulse and via the subjugation of one's Evil Impulse.

    What these plebeian sages wanted to obtain was a state of "yichud" (oneness; union; unification) with the Divine. For them, that could be accomplished via the internalization and actualization of the Torah, while giving special attention to positive ethical values (musarim), acts of loving kindness (gemilut hasidim) and charity (tzedekah). In this way, they sought to bind the sectarian wounds of the Nation and avert (or substantially lessen the impact of) the "wrath to come" and thereby usher in the Messianic Era.

    This was JUDAISM 101 for the plebeian sages living before, during and after Yeshua's day and age!

    The concept of yichud (union) in Yeshua's time alluded to the union experienced in the marital relationship, specifically the thought sharing (intimate communication) a husband and wife engage in and the mutual responsibilities marital partners shared in building a proper environment in which to raise their offspring. Yichud (oneness) has more to do with a unification of purpose and effort in the marital relationship than it does with "knocking boots" (copulation).

    So, the plebeian sages, saw in the marital relationship an allegory for their own relationship with the Divine, which is why the concept of yichud dovetails so nicely with the concept that mankind is to be a shituf (co-working partner) of YHVH in the Creation.

    Essentially, mankind was originally charged to be the steward (Grk. oikonomos) or servant (Heb. oved) of YHVH in the Earth. However, the concept of shituf (co-working partner) takes this notion a step further.

    We are not merely former slaves that have bound ourselves to a house (Exd. 21:5-6); working as stewards. Rather we are called to work in cooperation and partnership (shituf) with the Divine, because the Earth is the Patrimony we've inherited via the "spirit of adoption" (Rom. 8:15).

    Reb Zalman M. Schachter-Shalomi wrote, "David sings in the Psalms as having heard the Voice proclaim: 'You are my child. Today I have begotten you'.... When a person 'hears' this, birthing has begun. But to stop the process at this point would leave the soul in infancy. Being born again is not enough; you have to grow up, too."*

    So what does it mean to be born again? To be continued....

    * = "First Steps to a New Jewish Spirit," pp. 91-93.
    Last edited by smadewell; 07-18-2006, 02:23 AM.
    "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours."

  • #2
    So what does it mean to be born again?

    So what does it mean to be born again?

    Evangelical Christians place a lot of emphasis on the need to be "born again," which for them is accomplished by saying the "sinner's prayer" and accepting Jesus Christ as one's GOD and Savior, etc., etc., etc.

    Be that as it may, I'd like to point out that the historical Yeshua spoke of being "born again" as something that existed prior to his crucifixion. So, what did being "born again" mean to Yeshua? And did Shaul (Paul) agree with Yeshua's take on it?

    In his book, "PAUL AND RABBINIC JUDAISM: Some Rabbinic Elements in Pauline Theology," W.D. Davies has a whole chapter devoted to this topic. Basically, what we're dealing with here is the proto-rabbinic concept of the Evil Impulse (Yetzer ha-Ra) and the Good Impulse (Yetzer ha-Tov), which is present in both the Gospels and the Pauline letters; howbeit, dressed in Greek words.


    During the Common Era, it was an established belief among the plebeian Separatist sages that when a child comes of age and choses to become a Child of the Commandments their Good Impulse is activated. Prior to this time the individual is under the sway of their own Evil Impulse. One manifests the Kingdom of Heaven (the Rulership of YHVH) by taming their Evil Impulse, observing the Commandments and performing acts of loving-kindness and charity.

    How did the plebeian Separatist sages arrive at this conclusion? By an allegorical interpretation of Eccles. 4:13 ... :

    Better is a poor and wise child than an old and foolish king - (Eccles. 4:13). "The first clause refers to the Good Impulse. Why is it called a child? Because it does not attach itself to a person until the age of thirteen and upward. Why is it called poor? Because all do not hearken to it. Why is it called wise? Because it teaches creatures the right path. The second clause refers to the Evil Impulse. Why does he call it a king? Because all hearken to it. Why does he call it old? Because it attaches itself to a person from youth to old age. why does he call it a fool? Because it teaches man the wrong path" - (Eccles. Rabbah 4:13).

    The Evil Impulse is thirteen years older than the Good Impulse. It exists from the time of a person's emergence from his mother's womb; it grows with him and accompanies him through life. It begins to desecrate the Sabbath, to kill and act immorally, but there is nothing (within him) to prevent it. After thirteen years the Good Impulse is born. When he desecrates the Sabbath it warns him,"Good-for-nothing! Behold it is said, 'Every one that profaneth it shall surely be put to death' (Ex. 31:14)." If he thinks of committing a murder it warns him, "Good-for-nothing! Behold it is said, 'Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed' (Gen. 9:6)." If he proposes to act immorally it warns him, "Good-for-nothing! Behold it is said, 'Both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death' (Lev. 20:10)" - (The Avot of Rabbi Nathan 16).

    When Yeshua speaks of being "born again" and states, "That which is born of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is born of the spirit, is spirit," he is alluding to the Evil Impulse (sarx = flesh) and the Good Impulse (pneuma = spirit).

    So, why didn't Nicodemus (probably the historical Nakdimon Ben Gurion), a Separatist teacher of Yisrael, understand what Yeshua was talking about? Perhaps, being a patrician Separatist sage of Judea, he wasn't "up to snuff" with the teachings of the plebeian Separatist sages of the Galilee, who realized that the Kingdom of Heaven is already within each individual; a latent force waiting to be actualized via repentance and good deeds.

    Here's another allegorical interpretation into which the plebeian Separatist sages read the concept of the Two Impulses:

    Eccles. 9:14f - There was a little city, that is the body; and few men within it, those are the limbs; there came a great king against it, the Evil Impulse; and built great bulwarks against it, sins; now there was found in it a man, poor and wise, the Good Impulse; and by his wisdom delievered the city, that means repentance and good deeds; yet no man remembered that same poor man, because at the time the Evil Impulse holds sway the Good Impulse is forgotten - (Ned. 32b).

    Did you ever wonder where Freud came up with that Id, Ego and Super-Ego stuff? He lifted it straight from the pages of the rabbinic literature. The "Id" is the Evil Impulse; the Ego is the nefesh (soul = psyche); the Super-Ego is the Good Impulse.

    The plebeian Separatist sages taught that the Evil Impulse wasn't evil in and of itself, because without it we wouldn't engage in business, marry or begat children. Basically, the Evil Impulse - that is to say, our "Id" - is nothing more than the Sex Drive (i.e., self-procreation) and our Survival Instinct (i.e., self-preservation) and these two clearly walk hand-in-hand.

    Our Sex Drive only becomes evil when self-procreation is turned toward selfish-sexual gratification, via the Agent of the Flesh - what Shaul (Paul) called "the Old Man" (Col. 3:9; Eph. 4:22) - without due regard for (or the consent of) one's partner per the established Laws. (No, I'm not saying that sex is solely a procreative act).

    Further, our Survival Instinct only becomes evil when self-preservation becomes selfish-proclamation - "Me! Me! Me! My needs, wants, desires before (and/or in place of) those of others!"

    As far as Shaul (Paul) was concerned, it isn't enough that one merely adopt a Super-Ego. One's Good Impulse has to be guided and empowered by the Ruach Ha-Kodesh (Holy Spirit), that is to say, the Agent of Revelation. Why? Because in Judaism the individual's understanding must be guided by YHVH's Spirit in order to fulfill His perfect will. Herein might be the key to understanding the Pauline twist on the New Covenant (i.e., the Law of YHVH written upon one's heart).

    The plebeian Separatist sages also taught that the Evil Impulse, the Angel of Death and Satan (i.e., Belial, the "Good-for-nothing") are one in the same. This should shed some light on Yeshua's "Temptation in the Wilderness" and his "Get thee behind me, Satan!" remark addressed to Peter (Shimon). It wasn't the Devil tempting Yeshua ... it was his own Evil Impulse. And it wasn't Satan momentarily taking possession of Peter's body!

    Yeshua was preaching repentance in order to rescue his fellow countrymen from the dangers and ultimate consequences of a life devoted to heeding their Evil Impulse and ignoring the activation and development of their Good Impulse.

    Further, according to the rabbinic literature, the ultimate victory over the Evil Impulse won't come until it is removed from the human equation altogether, which won't occur until after the Day of Resurrection.

    We see this concept in Yeshua's teaching about life in the post-Resurrection Era: "The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection" (Luke 20:34-36).

    Yeshua is pointing out that in the post-Resurrection Era our Survival Instinct and Sex Drive will be removed. Why? Because one who is truly immortal doesn't need to protect themselves from death and one who is truly immortal need not procreate in order to perpetuate one's self by having offspring.

    I could go on and on, but I think these two Gospel passages - Yehsua speaking about "being born again" and "marriage in the post-Resurrection Era" - will suffice in demonstrating that the rabbinic teachings regarding the Two Impulses were not something novel in Yeshua's day and age.
    "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours."

    Comment


    • #3
      What is the New Covenant?

      What is the New Covenant?

      "Behold, the days come, saith YHVH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHVH: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHVH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their ELOHIM, and they shall be my people" - Jer. 31:31-33.

      Two things stand out here, IMO.

      1. The concept of a marital union (yichud) between YHVH and the Children of Yisrael, which, despite the claims of Replacement Theology has never been severed.

      "And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I [am] the LORD their God" - Lev. 26:44.

      2. The concept of the internalization of the Torahic Laws.

      Yeshua said, "I and {my} Father are one (echad)" - John 10:30. This verse is frequently used as a proof text in support of the belief that Yeshua is YHVH Himself or the 2nd Person in the Trinity.

      Yet, Yeshua also said:

      "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one (echad), as we {are}" - John 17:11.

      "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one (echad), even as we are one (echad). I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one (echad)" - John 17:22-23.

      What Yeshua is talking about here is the oneness (yichud) found in the marital relationship, that is to say, the cleaving together (devequt) that is experienced when two people from separate families unite (yichud) to become shitufim (co-working partners) and strive to build a home of their own. If they are not single-minded in this endeavor, then the relationship will suffer. Hence, the need to be of one mind (echad nefesh). That's why YHVH wanted Yisrael to have His Torah in their inward parts and written in their hearts.

      The question that we should be asking is - "How did the sages from this period expect this New Covenant to manifest itself?" The more we know about proto-rabbinic Judaism the better we'll understand why Yeshua took the course of action he did in manifesting this "New Covenant," because it is from the social milieu of the plebeian Separatists that he arose. As universal and as timeless and as "common sense" and as "down to earth" as his message might seem, nothing is born in a cultural vacuum.

      Was Yeshua alone in his attempt to manifest the "New Covenant"? I think not! Yeshua was part of a push by the plebeian sages to advance the Kingdom of Heaven within. While the plebeian sages focused on educating schoolchildren and training the next generation of scholars, Yeshua focused on restoring the "lost sheep" of Yisrael to the Torahic orthodoxy and orthopraxy of his fellow plebeian sages. That's what his Repentance/Kingdom Movement was all about!

      Did Yeshua put his own unique stamp on this push to manifest the New Covenant? Without question! Why? Well, maybe because there wasn't an Av Harachamim in Yeshua's day and age. Maybe he didn't want his disciples to forget about him or his teachings or the sacrifice he was about to make in laying down his life for the Plebeian Cause.

      So, he chose to link his own martyrdom with the one ceremony he knew his disciples would faithfully observe over and over again. Should we be surprised that he chose the Passover Seder to encapsulate he's message and memorialize his efforts in manifesting the New Covenant? Not really. (Is there not a precedent in 1Q28a 2.11-21?) Judaism is strewn with mnemonic rituals, customs and observances. Also, since it was the objective of these plebeian sages to actualize the Sinaic Ideal, how could Yeshua not take this opportunity to link his life's work and message with the Exodus? Once a person gets beyond the "shock value" behind the symbology - which was a very rabbinic tactic to employ - it all starts to make sense.

      The whole thrust of Yeshua's Repentance/Kingdom Movement was to bring about the "new birth," which, for the plebeian sages, meant the departure from a life given over to one's Evil Impulse via the activation (birth) of one's Good Impulse followed by the internalize and actualize the Torahic Laws - with YHVH's help, of course. Better one's death as a martyr than a life given over to one's Evil Impulse; better the Sinaic Ideal than a life of bondage in the Land of Egypt.

      It is only through our understanding of the culture from which Yeshua arose that we can begin to fathom what he sought to accomplish and how he sought to accomplish it. I see nothing pagan-esque in all this. It all seems very Jewish to me. Yes, it's foreign to our fast-food Western mindset, but not incomprehensible if we place it back into the proper historical, linguistic and cultural context.

      This stuff is so simple! Why must Christians obscure this "good news" with their Church's Soteriology, Eschatology, Christology and Theology!?
      "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours."

      Comment


      • #4
        The Heirs of YHVH; Joint-Heirs with the Anointed One

        Originally posted by smadewell
        We are not merely former slaves that have bound ourselves to a house (Exd. 21:5-6); working as stewards. Rather we are called to work in cooperation and partnership (shituf) with the Divine, because the Earth is the Patrimony we've inherited via the "spirit of adoption" (Rom. 8:15).

        Reb Zalman M. Schachter-Shalomi wrote, "David sings in the Psalms as having heard the Voice proclaim: 'You are my child. Today I have begotten you'.... When a person 'hears' this, birthing has begun. But to stop the process at this point would leave the soul in infancy. Being born again is not enough; you have to grow up, too."*

        So what does it mean to be born again? To be continued....

        * = "First Steps to a New Jewish Spirit," pp. 91-93.
        Remember the scene in the movie BEN HUR wherein Quintus Arrius (Jack Hawkins) tells Judah ben Hur (Charlton Heston) that the formalities of adoption have been completed and that Judah is now his son and heir? There you go! To be "born again" is to become a Son/Daughter of the Commandments; a Child of YHVH and an heir of the Patrimony (i.e., the Creation). That's the kind of relationship that Yeshua and Shaul (Paul) and their fellow plebeian sages were trying to get across to their audience.

        We're suppose to move from the status of a mere oikonomos (steward) to become the heir of the house; united (yichud) by the "spirit of adoption" to become a shituf (co-working partner) of the Divine in the Creation.

        "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of YHVH. And if children, then heirs; heirs of YHVH, and joint-heirs with the Anointed One" - Rom. 8:16-17.

        PLease, let's stop thinking like Christians and start thinking like Jews! This is Judaism 101! There's no reason one should view this material from a Christian or a metaphysical point of view. Looking to St. Augustine and Sri Swami Sivananda for an understanding of this material is only going to muddy the waters. All one needs to do is to put this material back into its proper historical, linguistic and cultural context.

        To be continued....
        "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours."

        Comment


        • #5
          Is Yeshua YHVH Himself?

          Is Yeshua YHVH Himself?

          Is Yeshua YHVH Himself? IMO? No.... Okay, so burn me at the stake. What can I say? I'm a heretic and an apostate.

          Yeshua said, "I and {my} Father are one" - John 10:30. Again, this is frequently used as a proof text to demonstrate that YHVH and Yeshua are one in the same being - God in a meat suit, if you will.

          Again, there are verses which counter this theological assertion.

          "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we {are}" - John 17:11.

          "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one" - John 17:22.

          What the Gentile Church has misunderstood, and, indeed, what some of the patrician religious authorities in Yeshua's day and age misunderstood, is that Yeshua is talking about the concept of yichud (union; unification; oneness) with the Divine in thought, word and deed.

          To be a shituf (co-working partner) with the Divine in the Creation one must achieve a state of yichud (oneness) and do so through kavanah* (directed focus in one's devotion) and devequt (cleaving).

          The Jewish mystics have expounded upon these concepts, but in Yeshua's time it was something very straight forward and easily understood by the plebeians who had been exposed to these concepts through the stories they'd heard about the prophets and miracle workers in the Oral Traditions taught to them by their plebeian sages.

          It is through one's focused attention (kavanah) on the Divine as revealed in His Torah and one's emunah (faith and faithful observance) that one demonstrates their ability to cleave (devequt) to the Divine and become his co-working partner (shituf) in the Creation.

          In this way, the Word of YHVH literally becomes flesh, because the individual has become a walking, talking manifestation of YHVH's Torah, a flesh and blood offspring of the Divine, so to speak.

          In this way, "the Word of YHVH became flesh and dwelt among us" in the person of the historical man, Yeshua ben Yosef. Surely, you've heard the expression, "That guy's a walking encyclopedia!" That's the same idea here. There's nothing metaphysical about it! Stop thinking that Yeshua and his disciples were Hellenistic Jews like Philo! They were plebeian disciples from the School of Hillel.

          Yes, Yeshua was a walking, talking Torah - in thought, word and deed. The yichud (oneness) and devequt (cleaving) he experienced, on a personal level with the Divine, is the same union and celaving that he prayed that his followers would likewise experience.

          * = KAVANAH cannot really be defined with one word. Kavanah is the "attention", "focus", "intensity", and "directedness of the heart" with which prayer is ideally approached. It's also linked to the concept of devotion. A person who prays with kavanah fills his/her words with the full depth of concern and intention about their meaning. (The opposite extreme would be rote recitation of written prayers without thinking about what one is saying.)

          In cases in which the person praying is composing spontaneous, inspired prayers, kavanah is in rather ready supply; it is both the motivator and the essence of the prayer. For example a simple "thank Heaven" uttered by a truly grateful person who escaped calamity is a bona fide prayer filled with kavanah. The anxious wish of a worried parent for the speedy recovery of a sick child is another example of a spontaneous (albeit oft-repeated) prayer that is naturally filled with kavanah. The joyful exclamations of a nature lover on a bright sunny morning can also be described as a prayer with kavanah.

          The Rabbis observed that, "prayer without kavanah is like a body without a soul". The 15th century Rabbi Yitzchak Arama points out: "it is easy to stand in prayer at a certain time each day. But if you do not concentrate in your heart, how is your prayer any different than the mindless chirping of birds?" - Akedat Yitzhak 58 (3:17a).

          It is also worth noting that "the ancient Chasidim spent an hour (in recollection before praying) in order to direct their hearts towards the Father in heaven" (Mishnah Berakoth 5:1). This notation from the rabbinic literature tells us of the importance of kavanah (directed focus) and it demonstrates that YHVH was regarded as the Heavenly Father of these ancient Chasidim (et al).
          "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours."

          Comment


          • #6
            Yeshua: Man or YHVH?

            Shabbat Shalom and welcome to the forums, smadewell:

            Wow! You are a person of many words. But, I read them all .

            I agree with much of what you've said (and may have a different view on some). But, if I can boil your posts down to their key points, I understand you to be saying:
            • There exists no Kingdom of YHVH. Heaven is here and now.
            • Everyone, including Adam and Eve, have been created with a propensity to sin. We have to destroy our Evil Inclinations and build up our Good Inclinations.
            • When we devote ourselves to the Good (the Torah), we are in a sense marrying ourselves to (becoming one with) YHVH.
            • By focusing our energies / devotion on YHVH's Torah, we are "born again" to become spiritual children of YHVH.
            • Yeshua was not YHVH in the flesh but just a man (albeit a great one), a plebeian sage.
            Is that pretty accurate?
            Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

            hyssop

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by hyssop
              Shabbat Shalom and welcome to the forums, smadewell:

              Wow! You are a person of many words. But, I read them all .

              I agree with much of what you've said (and may have a different view on some). But, if I can boil your posts down to their key points, I understand you to be saying:
              • There exists no Kingdom of YHVH. Heaven is here and now.
              • Everyone, including Adam and Eve, have been created with a propensity to sin. We have to destroy our Evil Inclinations and build up our Good Inclinations.
              • When we devote ourselves to the Good (the Torah), we are in a sense marrying ourselves to (becoming one with) YHVH.
              • By focusing our energies / devotion on YHVH's Torah, we are "born again" to become spiritual children of YHVH.
              • Yeshua was not YHVH in the flesh but just a man (albeit a great one), a plebeian sage.
              Is that pretty accurate?
              Hmmm....

              - There is no difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of YHVH, because "Heaven" is simple another way of alluding to The Name (i.e., YHVH). The Kingdom of Heaven, as described in the rabbinic literature and the gospels, is simply the Rulership of YHVH in one's daily life. Yes, the Rulership of YHVH is a present reality. I have nothing to say about a "heavenly abode" were souls are suppose to go in the Afterlife.

              - There is no concept of "original sin" in Judaism. The Evil Impulse is not really evil, because it amounts to our Sex Drive and our Survival Instinct. Therefore, we cannot destroy our Evil Impulse and would be foolish to try. However, we can and should subjugate our Sex Drive and Survival Instinct and make them serve YHVH. Alternately, we have the option to use our Sex Drive and Survival Instinct to serve our own selfish impulses. The choice is up to us.

              - Yes, in cleaving to Torah observance - and performing acts of lovingkindness and charity - we are manifesting the Rulership of YHVH in our daily life and thereby we function as co-working partners with the Divine in the Creation, which is our Patrimony.

              - When we make the choice to stop living a sin-filled life and repent and turn to YHVH our Good Impulse is activated. For a Jew this choice is made at their Bar/Bat Mitzvah. For a repentant Gentile (Ger Toshav) or a repentant Jew (Chozer B'Teshuvah) ... this happens at whatever time in their life that they choose to turn toward YHVH. In making the choice to become a Child of YHVH and accept YHVH as one's Heavenly Father one becomes "born again." The devotion and focus that follows that decision amounts to "growth."

              - Yes, Yeshua was a man of YHVH. He was empowered and moved by YHVH's Spirit. In all ways, he was a true and faithful servant of the Divine and was a martyr of the Plebeian Cause, which sought to advance the Rulership of YHVH among the Secular and not-so-Torah-observant Jews of his day and age.

              We really need to get beyond a Christian understanding of these Jewish concepts.
              "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours."

              Comment


              • #8
                Evil Impulse

                smadewell,

                So, in your opinion, there is no sin apart from Sex Drive and Survival Instinct? Where does coveting fall? There are many other sins that do not appear to be related to only those two categories.

                FYI . . . I believe that the traditional vew of "original sin" is wrong. Adam and Eve were created slaves to sin. There was no "fall" but simply their sudden awareness of the sin they possessed before their eyes were opened.

                Hyssop
                Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

                hyssop

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by hyssop
                  smadewell,

                  So, in your opinion, there is no sin apart from Sex Drive and Survival Instinct? Where does coveting fall? There are many other sins that do not appear to be related to only those two categories.

                  FYI . . . I believe that the traditional vew of "original sin" is wrong. Adam and Eve were created slaves to sin. There was no "fall" but simply their sudden awareness of the sin they possessed before their eyes were opened.

                  Hyssop
                  As stated before.... The Survival Instinct only becomes evil when self-preservation becomes selfish-proclamation.

                  "Me! Me! Me! Me! My needs, wants and desires above those of others!"
                  Last edited by smadewell; 08-06-2006, 04:33 AM.
                  "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And, isn't that how we were created . . . me, me, me? One can see that the natural order of things is that a person is self-centered until they reach the age of maturity: some later than others and for a few, never. Most move to parenthood and learn give rather than receive.

                    Hashem wants us to mature into beings that truly care for others more than ourselves. That's the maturity of Messiah: the ability to give up everything for our sake, even while we were murdering him through our sin.
                    Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

                    hyssop

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hyssop
                      And, isn't that how we were created . . . me, me, me? One can see that the natural order of things is that a person is self-centered until they reach the age of maturity: some later than others and for a few, never. Most move to parenthood and learn give rather than receive.

                      Hashem wants us to mature into beings that truly care for others more than ourselves. That's the maturity of Messiah: the ability to give up everything for our sake, even while we were murdering him through our sin.
                      People were maturing before, during and after Yeshua's time. There are four types of people:

                      There are four types among people:

                      The one who says, "What is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours." This is the average person.

                      The one who says, "What is mine is yours, and what is yours is mine." This is the simpleton.

                      The one who says, "What is mine is yours, and what is yours is yours." This is the saintly person (Chasid).

                      The one who says, "What is mine is mine, and what is yours is mine." This is the wicked person. (Misnah Avot 5:10)

                      Hillel and the plebeian sages set out to create a nation of Anointed Ones, who were Chasidim (Benevolent Ones), that is to say, a Holy Nation filled with people who would say, ""What is mine is yours, and what is yours is yours."

                      Yeshua had long since resigned himself to a martyr's death. He knew that predicting the overthrow of the Zadokites (Sadducees) and boldly denouncing the hypocrisy of the patrician Separatists of the School of Shammai was going to land him in trouble.

                      Doubtless he had been taught the story of the priest Eleazar, his wife and their seven sons:

                      Indeed it would be proper to inscribe upon their tomb these words as a reminder to the people of our nation:

                      "Here lie buried an aged priest and an aged woman and seven sons, because of the violence of the tyrant who wished to destroy the way of life of the Hebrews. They vindicated their nation, looking to God and enduring torture even to death."

                      Truly the contest in which they were engaged was divine, for on that day virtue gave the awards and tested them for their endurance. The prize was immortality in endless life. Eleazar was the first contestant, the mother of the seven sons entered the competition, and the brothers contended. The tyrant was the antagonist, and the world and the human race were the spectators. Reverence for God was victor and gave the crown to its own athletes. Who did not admire the athletes of the divine legislation? Who were not amazed? The tyrant himself and all his council marveled at their endurance, because of which they now stand before the divine throne and live through blessed eternity.

                      For Moses says, "All who are consecrated are under your hands." These, then, who have been consecrated for the sake of God, are honored, not only with this honor, but also by the fact that because of them our enemies did not rule over our nation, the tyrant was punished, and the homeland purified -- they having become, as it were, a ransom for the sin of our nation - 4 Maccabees 17:48-21.
                      What Yeshua did with his life and in his death ... he was compelled to do.
                      "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours."

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                      • #12
                        CORRECTION:

                        4 Maccabees 17:9-21.
                        "What is mine is yours and what is yours is yours."

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