Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A Christian Misconception

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • A Christian Misconception

    Greetings! I read this on another forum and thought I would post it. It's kind of interesting -

    ________________________________________

    BS''D

    Although a common teaching, it is simply not fact that Jews (Orthodox / Rabbinic) replaced the sacrifice system with works based salvation. The truth is that every "religious" Jew (That is, one who is a keeper of mitzvos and knowlegable in Judaism) knows that nobody gets forgiveness save through the grace of HaShem. All anyone has to do is pick up a siddur (Jewish prayer book, for those that don't know) and read it. Get yourself an Artscroll "Yom Kippur Katan" siddur (Rosh Chodesh "New Moon" service) and read it. It continually talks about the fact that we can't even begin to stand before HaShem without his graces.

    Why does a Jew focus so much on Mitzvos (commandments)? Becuase when you read Torah you see that HaShem focus' on them. He continually, trhough the mouth of Moses, tells us that we need to be careful to obey all of His Mitzvos. It is an everlasting covenant throughout ALL our generations.

    So then the question: Why does a Jew rely on repentance, prayer and tzedakah (charity) to get forgiveness of sin? The answer is, that the Bible states that those three things brings forgiveness of sin.

    Before we go to far down that road, let me say this. Every Jew and Christian know that there is nothing that we do that forgives our sin. The Torah tells us bring a sacrifice and repent. We do this (if there were a Temple) but it's not the act that forgives you. It's not the blood that brings the forgiveness. Granted G-d did tell us to do this thing, and so we're required to do so, but it's only through His grace that any sin is forgiven.

    Let me show you a web site to show this.

    http://www.qumran.com/For_a_Better_...ding/index.html

    It should be stated that I do not agree with some of the things mentioned in these articles, but it's high time "Christianity" started reading the Bible for themselves and not just listen to what their pastors are teaching them. I do, as stated before, believe in Messiah, but do not agree with Christianities views of Him. For all intents and purposes I am an orthodox Jew yet I believe in Moshiach. I daven at an Orthodox Shul, one that does not believe in Him. Why? Because Yeshua (Jesus) was an Orthodox Jew. If he was truly sinless, then he kept all the Torah. He tells us to follow his example. Paul even mentions in Acts 26 that he IS a Pharisee and never broke the commandments (Torah) or the traditions of the fathers (Oral Torah). Either he's a liar, or he's an orthodox Jew as well.

    Be Well,
    Mikha'el
    Luke 2:14

  • #2
    LoL - that link is just so insightful!

    watch it work for someone else so I can put my foot in my mouth . . .
    Luke 2:14

    Comment


    • #3
      The link didn't get me anywhere.
      Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

      hyssop

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: A Christian Misconception

        Originally posted by ???
        It's not the blood that brings the forgiveness.
        Leviticus 17:11
        11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.


        Modern Judaism wants to believe that the shedding of blood is not required, because they have no place in which to offer it.

        I'm glad to see that your friend has acknowledged that the blood is required.

        Ever wonder why the Temple was destroyed within a few decades of the "final sacrifice"? Coincidence? Personally, I don't think so.

        with love,
        matt

        Comment


        • #5
          Who is the Temple?

          Greetings Matthew,

          You said you were glad to see my friend acknowledged that blood is required.

          Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?
          If it is the blood that forgive, why would a sacrifice given with a wicked mind be and abomination? Shouldn't The Father just be happy since blood has been shed?

          Peace!
          Valid Name
          Luke 2:14

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Valid,

            The sacrifice will do the wicked no good whatsoever...

            unless they repent.

            Numbers 15:30-31
            'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes YHWH, and that person must be cut off from his people. 31 Because he has despised YHWH's word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.'


            The "defiant" sinner is "cut off" because there is no sacrifice left for him. If the sinner brings his offering without a "broken and contrite heart" (Ps.51), the offering is useless, and is an "abomination".

            That's my take.

            blessings to ya,
            matt

            Comment


            • #7
              Greetings Matt!

              So why then is blood required?

              Valid
              Luke 2:14

              Comment


              • #8
                This comes to mind:

                "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23)

                matt

                Comment


                • #9
                  Neat!

                  Greetings Matthew!

                  The Wages of Sin is death - We Sin, We need to die?

                  We DO die! We die WITH Messiah! I KNOW you know this! Why then, is blood required? We Sin, We EARN our Wages! Death. You know that our CONTRITE HEART is OUR DEATH of our FORMER man.

                  Imagine this - !

                  You stand guilty of your sin. You NEED to be Forgiven. You stand at Pilates sentence. You either let Messiah live - or you let him free!

                  If you let him Free - YOU DIE AND ARE NOT FORGIVEN!
                  You KILL him, and ARE FORGIVEN!

                  Do you see what this means? You then MUST SIN to be FORGIVEN of your PAST SINS!

                  Peace,
                  Valid Name
                  Luke 2:14

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Valid,

                    Yes, we are crucified with Messiah. But his blood was spilled, so we could keep ours.

                    Hebrews 9:22
                    In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


                    I guess I'm what some might call a die hard substitutionalist.

                    with love,
                    matt

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Cook County

                      Greetings Matthew!

                      So what you are telling me in essense, is that you WOULD PURPOSEFULLY Kill Messiah, for you own salvation, and The Father would see this as justice!

                      Don't you see that is what that means? You Needed to your sins forgiven, so instead of repenting, The Father only gave you The Choice to spill an innocent mans blood on purpose! You would have to SIN AGAIN!

                      Don't you think that The Father would find it more noble to GIVE UP your salavation than to Kill and Innocent man?

                      Peace,
                      Valid Name
                      Luke 2:14

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        It's your Birthday!

                        Happy Birthday By the Way Matthew! I hope yours was as good as mine! On the Opening day of Hockey season you had yours!
                        Luke 2:14

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Anticipation

                          Thanks Valid!

                          My family and I are headed to Florida today. I awoke early in anticipation of the trip. I'm still like a little kid that way...

                          Blues vs. Avalanche on Sunday; who's gonna win?

                          Have a good week; I'll talk at you all later!

                          matt

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            This is what I believe:

                            Messiah came to be a ransom for many (including you and me).

                            I have been crucified with Messiah, yet I have no scars on my hands.

                            I have been crucified with Messiah, yet I have no scars on my feet.

                            I have been crucified with Messiah, yet I have no scars around my head.

                            I have been crucified with Messiah, yet I have no scars in my sides.

                            I have been crucified with Messiah and I no longer live, but Messiah, who gave himself for me, lives in me (substitutionalism?).

                            Matt

                            "For You so loved the unlovable
                            That You gave the ineffable
                            That who so believes the unbelievable
                            Will gain the unattainable."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: A Christian Misconception

                              Originally posted by Valid Name
                              Greetings! I read this on another forum and thought I would post it. It's kind of interesting -

                              ________________________________________

                              BS''D

                              Although a common teaching, it is simply not fact that Jews (Orthodox / Rabbinic) replaced the sacrifice system with works based salvation. The truth is that every "religious" Jew (That is, one who is a keeper of mitzvos and knowlegable in Judaism) knows that nobody gets forgiveness save through the grace of HaShem. All anyone has to do is pick up a siddur (Jewish prayer book, for those that don't know) and read it. Get yourself an Artscroll "Yom Kippur Katan" siddur (Rosh Chodesh "New Moon" service) and read it. It continually talks about the fact that we can't even begin to stand before HaShem without his graces.

                              Why does a Jew focus so much on Mitzvos (commandments)? Becuase when you read Torah you see that HaShem focus' on them. He continually, trhough the mouth of Moses, tells us that we need to be careful to obey all of His Mitzvos. It is an everlasting covenant throughout ALL our generations.

                              So then the question: Why does a Jew rely on repentance, prayer and tzedakah (charity) to get forgiveness of sin? The answer is, that the Bible states that those three things brings forgiveness of sin.

                              Before we go to far down that road, let me say this. Every Jew and Christian know that there is nothing that we do that forgives our sin. The Torah tells us bring a sacrifice and repent. We do this (if there were a Temple) but it's not the act that forgives you. It's not the blood that brings the forgiveness. Granted G-d did tell us to do this thing, and so we're required to do so, but it's only through His grace that any sin is forgiven.

                              Let me show you a web site to show this.

                              http://www.qumran.com/For_a_Better_...ding/index.html

                              It should be stated that I do not agree with some of the things mentioned in these articles, but it's high time "Christianity" started reading the Bible for themselves and not just listen to what their pastors are teaching them. I do, as stated before, believe in Messiah, but do not agree with Christianities views of Him. For all intents and purposes I am an orthodox Jew yet I believe in Moshiach. I daven at an Orthodox Shul, one that does not believe in Him. Why? Because Yeshua (Jesus) was an Orthodox Jew. If he was truly sinless, then he kept all the Torah. He tells us to follow his example. Paul even mentions in Acts 26 that he IS a Pharisee and never broke the commandments (Torah) or the traditions of the fathers (Oral Torah). Either he's a liar, or he's an orthodox Jew as well.

                              Be Well,
                              Mikha'el
                              Personally, I pretty much agree with this post. The only thing that I will say that I do not agree with is that Yeshua was a Orthodox Jew. There wasn't a such thing back then. Yeshua was simply an observant Jew and did what is expected of Jews.

                              I am not so sure why people think that Jews believe that works offer salvation. I suppose since Judaism focuses on keeping the Torah and much of Christianity focuses on the idea that Law is done away.

                              I personally chalk the idea that some in Christianity have about Judaism up to being unlearned in the area.

                              Shalom,
                              Jeannie

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X